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Thread: Where did U152 originate? and how/where the early branches expand?

  1. #51
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    So far, it looks like RISE563 cannot be classified as anything but U152+. There are many positions that have no data, but where they do exist, they do not match any known SNPs below U152. Of interest however, it may be that RISE563 "may" be related to RISE564, which is the other Bell Beaker sample from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Bavaria. RISE564 is at least R-L51, with no reads on L11, P312, U152 etc. RISE563 and RISE564 share these SNPs with each other: 7695277(C>T) and 8539862(G>A), but not with any other U152 I have access to and negative in a least one other RISE sample. The caution is that these may be low quality false positives, alignment errors, etc. So, nothing conclusive, but just something to look into a little deeper for those that are looking into BAM files.

    And to add something more specific to the title of the thread...for those that thought that U152 was purely a sign of a Roman expansion, they were wrong.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 06-17-2015 at 10:57 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  3. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    So far, it looks like RISE563 cannot be classified as anything but U152+. There are many positions that have no data, but where they do exist, they do not match any known SNPs below U152. Of interest however, it may be that RISE563 "may" be related to RISE564, which is the other Bell Beaker sample from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Bavaria. RISE564 is at least R-L51, with no reads on L11, P312, U152 etc. RISE563 and RISE564 share these SNPs with each other: 7695277(C>T) and 8539862(G>A), but not in any other U152 I have access to and negative in a least one other RISE sample. The caution is that these may be low quality false positives, alignment errors, etc. So, nothing conclusive, but just something to look into a little deeper for those that are looking into BAM files.

    And to add something more specific to the title of the thread...for those that thought that U152 was purely a sign of a Roman expansion, they were wrong.
    Richard, is this because of low quality of the sample or because of the low number of reads / coverage?
    Avatar:
    Roman helmet, gilded silver, 319-323 A.D. Made by Marcus Titus Lunamis. Found in 1910, Helenaveen, The Netherlands.
    Its owner belonged to the sixth cavalry unit of the Equites Stablesiani. On the right side of the helmet cap it says ‘Stablesia VI'.

  4. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by mafe View Post
    Richard, is this because of low quality of the sample or because of the low number of reads / coverage?
    The latter. Most positions have zero or one read.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  5. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    The latter. Most positions have zero or one read.
    That's a shame It would be great if there was a way to do a better sequencing-test with additional radiocarbon dating and isotope analysis.
    Avatar:
    Roman helmet, gilded silver, 319-323 A.D. Made by Marcus Titus Lunamis. Found in 1910, Helenaveen, The Netherlands.
    Its owner belonged to the sixth cavalry unit of the Equites Stablesiani. On the right side of the helmet cap it says ‘Stablesia VI'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mafe View Post
    That's a shame It would be great if there was a way to do a better sequencing-test with additional radiocarbon dating and isotope analysis.
    It's almost certainly caused by decay of the sample, not a poor quality (low-coverage) test. Getting this much nuclear DNA info out of a guy who died 4400 years ago is already pretty amazing. They can't use PCR to amplify something that's no longer present; if it's gone, it's gone. If they are working from teeth, he may have had several more good teeth, so one might yet hope for resampling, etc. But I doubt if that's a very high fiscal priority.

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  9. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    So far, it looks like RISE563 cannot be classified as anything but U152+. There are many positions that have no data, but where they do exist, they do not match any known SNPs below U152. Of interest however, it may be that RISE563 "may" be related to RISE564, which is the other Bell Beaker sample from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Bavaria. RISE564 is at least R-L51, with no reads on L11, P312, U152 etc. RISE563 and RISE564 share these SNPs with each other: 7695277(C>T) and 8539862(G>A), but not in any other U152 I have access to and negative in a least one other RISE sample. The caution is that these may be low quality false positives, alignment errors, etc. So, nothing conclusive, but just something to look into a little deeper for those that are looking into BAM files.

    And to add something more specific to the title of the thread...for those that thought that U152 was purely a sign of a Roman expansion, they were wrong.
    I checked Yfull's database and all U152 members had the reference values for 7695277 and 8539862 i.e. none of them had the same mutations as RISE563 and RISE564.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    35% English, 15% Scottish, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 11% Ulster Scot, 5% Ireland, 3% Scandinavian, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
    Hidden Content

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  11. #57
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    Looking at the new info on RISE563 from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt got me to thinking ...

    Passau, where the Danube and Inn join, is just east of Osterhofen-Altenmarkt. If U152 was born along the Danube, around or east of Passau, perhaps the east (L2)/ west (Z36) split seen in Northern Italy, and to some extent in Switzerland, could be explained. The Z36 tribe (in general) may have followed the Danube into the Black Forest and from there spread out into the Alsace, the Swiss Mittleland, along the Nekar and Rhine, and from there eventually into Northwestern Italy with the Cisalpine Gauls. A part of the L2 tribe may have followed the Inn into the Tyrol and eventually into Northeastern Italy.

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  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by emmental View Post
    Looking at the new info on RISE563 from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt got me to thinking ...

    Passau, where the Danube and Inn join, is just east of Osterhofen-Altenmarkt. If U152 was born along the Danube, around or east of Passau, perhaps the east (L2)/ west (Z36) split seen in Northern Italy, and to some extent in Switzerland, could be explained. The Z36 tribe (in general) may have followed the Danube into the Black Forest and from there spread out into the Alsace, the Swiss Mittleland, along the Nekar and Rhine, and from there eventually into Northwestern Italy with the Cisalpine Gauls. A part of the L2 tribe may have followed the Inn into the Tyrol and eventually into Northeastern Italy.
    I was looking at possible links between Northern Italy and the Osterhofen-Altenmarkt site and found this map that shows the distribution Bell Beaker antler pendants...

    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  15. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    Grazie mille. My mothers great grandmother came from Spain as did her husband. One was from Castille and the other from Barcelona, I am not sure which one came from where...Surname Vona..So I am not sure what my MtDNA is. I still have many male and female relatives of this line in Rome. My mothers father was a Comito. He or is his father was born in Algeria, (not so good with the history) when one of their fathers was a Cavalier for the French Legion but from what I know originally came from Italy as well and was blonde haired and blue eyed. My mother has auburn hair, hazel eyes and fair skin. Her 8 sisters are a mix of blondes, brunettes and red heads.

    My fathers surname is Panara my father insists his family was and has always been in Italy. His father had land in Palestrina and Orvieto. He told me we also have family in Perugia and down in Terni and of course Rome... His mother was a Frisina from Reggio Calabria..
    You can find surnames Vona and Panara here: http://worldnames.publicprofiler.org/
    Known ancestry: 92.6% German (66.8% North German), 4.7% Danish, 1.8% Czech, 0.8% Austrian, 0.1% Swiss.
    EUROGENES K13: N German, N Dutch, DNK, SWE, NOR. Ancestry: Germanic 99%, Baltic 1%. LM: NOR, DNK, NLD, N-DEU, SWE.
    23andMe: NW Europe 82.5% (French/German 50.2%, Scandinavian 9.1%, British/Irish 3.2%), East Europe 11.5%, South Europe 1.5%. DNAL: NW Euro 81%, NE Euro 11%, Med 6.5%
    Y-DNA: R1b/U152/Z36/CTS4333, Thuringia 1634, probably Alsace 1552, -- mt-DNA: H

  16. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by CelticGerman View Post
    You can find surnames Vona and Panara here: http://worldnames.publicprofiler.org/
    or italian site

    La distribuzione geografica del cognome VONA in Italia .....675 families
    309 Lazio
    86 Calabria
    71 Sicilia
    56 Piemonte
    46 Campania
    38 Lombardia
    other regions far less

    Antica famiglia siciliana, detta Vona o Di Vona, con residenza in Palermo, propagatasi, nel corso dei secoli, in diverse regioni d'Italia. L'origine di tal cognominizzazione, al dir di illustri genealogisti, andrebbe ricercata nel nome medioevale "Vonus, Vona", appartenuto, probabilmente, ad un, oggi ignoto, capostipite. Tal casato, il quale fu fregiato del titolo baronale in Palermo, nel 1600, inoltre, in ogni tempo, sempre, si distinse per gli illustri personaggi, a cui ...continua
    Basically Vona is Sicilian ( Palermo) from circa 1600 ..............it could be spanish


    Panara has 113 families

    43 Lombardia
    41 Abruzzo
    9 Umbria
    6 Lazio
    Last edited by vettor; 06-18-2015 at 07:32 AM.


    My Path = ( K-M9+, LT-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-CTS6397 yDna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtDna
    Son's mtDna = K1a4p

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