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Thread: who were the original chinese speaker?

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    I quoted 3 chinese scholar works. So you mean I do not trust chinese scholar work from now on?
    You should widen your horizons and not rely on the speculations of Chinese geneticists, or any geneticist that tries to equate a haplogroup tens of thousands of years old with a language family merely a few thousand years old. All major languages today are spoken by people from a variety of genetic backgrounds. The two categories - language and genetics - are not equivalent and this is as obvious as looking up the distribution.

    For example, haplogroup N is present in less than 5% of Turkic speakers in Turkey, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, and Kyrgrzstan - the four largest Turkic speaking countries today. That alone should dispel the idea that haplogroup N is a diagnostic marker for "Altaic."
    Last edited by Lathdrinor; 09-30-2016 at 02:00 AM.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lathdrinor View Post
    You should widen your horizons and not rely on the speculations of Chinese geneticists, or any geneticist that tries to equate a haplogroup tens of thousands of years old with a language family merely a few thousand years old. All major languages today are spoken by people from a variety of genetic backgrounds. The two categories - language and genetics - are not equivalent and this is as obvious as looking up the distribution.

    For example, haplogroup N is present in less than 5% of Turkic speakers in Turkey, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, and Kyrgrzstan - the four largest Turkic speaking countries today. That alone should dispel the idea that haplogroup N is a diagnostic marker for "Altaic."
    First of all, I think one chinese scholar's following opinion is historically correct. When he mentioned "altaic,' it meant "nomad peoples in the Steppe, like the Xiongnu, Xianbei, Tujue (Turkic Khaganate) , andHuihu (Uyghur Khaganate)", which the other chinese scholar said.
    The all chinese scholars tried to say that the chinese speaking people did not reside in the northern area before Han Dynasty.

    The Han Chinese are the largest ethnic group in the world and have a current population of a staggering 1.3 billion individuals [1].
    According to historical documents, the generally accepted view is that the Han Chinese can trace their origins to the Huaxia ethnic group, which formed during the Shang and Zhou dynasties (21st–8th centuries BC) in the Central Plain region of China (Fig 1) [2]. During the Han Dynasty (260 BC-220 AD), the Huaxia ethnic group developed into a tribe known as the Han Chinese [3]. Because of their advanced agriculture and technology, this group migrated northward into regions inhabited by many ancient northern ethnic groups that were most likely Altaic in origin
    Second, N is not now altaic marker at all. We think around 5,000bc.
    It could be uralic or altaic. I think that is why Uralic and Altaic is similar. N1c moved to North Europe, becoming Uralic.
    I don't think N1 and Nic spoke differently at that time.

    Xueshan culture (Jiangjialiang site) 5600–4900 BP (s=17)
    1. 58.8% N*-M231 (xN1c2a-M128, N1c1-Tat)
    2. 41.2% N1c1-Tat
    and another scholar also mentioned that N people was significantly different from O3 people
    The Yellow River valley, located in the southwest region of the West Liao River valley, was one original centre of agriculture in China. O3-M122 is the most abundant haplogroup in both ancient (80%, n=5) and extant population (53%, n=304) of the region [8, 13], but the frequency of O3-M122 only began to rise in the West Liao River valley in the Bronze Age.The ancient West Liao River valley population is significantly different from both the ancient Yellow River Valley population (P<0.01), and the extant Yellow River Valley population (P<0.01).
    Did you think N1c and N1 spoke differently around 5,000bc?
    I thought they didn't speak tibetan burmese (or sino tibetan) b/c they were different from O3.

    Edit:
    pls refer to the following thread
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...eolithic-China

    And case is closed
    Last edited by johen; 10-01-2016 at 01:17 AM.

  4. #13
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    Pei He, Zhengmao Hu, Zhobin Zhu, Kun Xia, Shi Huang, Han Chinese males with surnames related to the legendary Huang and Yan Emperors are enriched for the top two Neolithic super-grandfather Y chromosomes O3a2c1a and O3a1c, respectively, bioRxiv, Posted September 30, 2016.

    http://biorxiv.org/content/early/201...222?rss=1%2522

    Most populations now use hereditary surnames, and most societies have patrilineal surnames. This naming system is believed to have started almost 5000 years ago in China. According to legends and ancient history books, there were Eight Great Xings of High Antiquity that were the ancestors of most Chinese surnames today and are thought to be descended from the two legendary prehistoric Emperors Yan and Huang. Recent work identified three Neolithic super-grandfathers represented by Y chromosome haplotypes, O3a1c, O3a2c1, and O3a2c1a, which makes it possible to test the tales of Yan-Huang and their descendant surnames. We performed two independent surveys of contemporary Han Chinese males (total number of subjects 2415) and divided the subjects into four groups based on the relationships of their surnames with the Eight Great Xings, Jiang (Yan), Ying (Huang), Ji(Huang), and Others (5 remaining Xings related to Huang). In both studies, we found that subjects with O3a1c were enriched with Jiang-related surnames and subjects with O3a2c1a were enriched with Ying-related surnames. Also, subjects with Jiang-related surnames were enriched with O3a1c and those with Ying-related surnames were enriched with O3a2c1a. Finally, subjects with O3a2c1 were slightly enriched for the Others-group, consistent with linking O3a2c1 to another legendary leader Chi You who lost to Huang and was largely ignored as an ancestor of Han on par with Yan and Huang. These results are remarkably consistent with historical writings on Yan and Huang and suggest that tales of Yan-Huang and their related-Xings and surnames may not be unrealistic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Pei He, Zhengmao Hu, Zhobin Zhu, Kun Xia, Shi Huang, Han Chinese males with surnames related to the legendary Huang and Yan Emperors are enriched for the top two Neolithic super-grandfather Y chromosomes O3a2c1a and O3a1c, respectively, bioRxiv, Posted September 30, 2016.
    I think the chinese language was connected with chinese characters, which was invented in Shang dynasty at Bronze age. My question is whether shang people spoke chinese?

    Shang


    Sintasha

    http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/chariots.htm

    1. Harvard scholar Dr.Chang described shang civilization as China-Maya Continuum as I mentioned before. It means two civilizations had the same origin.

    2. Moreover, Old Chinese language was lots of IE borrowings.
    http://sino-platonic.org/complete/sp...ld_chinese.pdf

    3. And shang had so many human sacrifice pits, which means the shang people were definitely not O3 farmers at all. It was pretty similar to Yamna situation except pits which means more cruel than yamna people. Recently new shang pit was found and UBC Team in Canada spent whole summer in China.

    So I think shang people might be related with ANE Q and chinese language was spoken after china bronze.
    Last edited by johen; 10-03-2016 at 04:13 AM.

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    On the basis of our discussion on another thread, I admit that it is possible that LGM population in South Siberia spoke similar languages. There were probably languages of different origin which were trapped in the same area, but if the area got smaller and smaller, languages surely started to converge and shared more and more words. The structural similarities of Altaic languages, excluding Japanese and Korean, could have their roots in this South Siberian Ice Age Refuge. However, I think that there was another refuge in Amur area where different languages were spoken, and it is possible that the origin of Na Dene languages is in Amur. The Chinese languages, as Sino-Tibetan languages in general, have been hypothesized to belong to the same macro-family with Na Dene Languages. This could have a geographical basis if this type of languages were spoken in Northeast China and Amur in the post-Ice Age period.

    With these similarities, I refer to broad structural similarities, and I am not thinking in terms of modern language families. It is impossible to reconstruct post-GM language families as long as the relationships between modern families are not clear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    On the basis of our discussion on another thread, I admit that it is possible that LGM population in South Siberia spoke similar languages. There were probably languages of different origin which were trapped in the same area, but if the area got smaller and smaller, languages surely started to converge and shared more and more words. The structural similarities of Altaic languages, excluding Japanese and Korean, could have their roots in this South Siberian Ice Age Refuge.
    A finnish scholar had the same opinion:

    Juha Janhunen has repeatedly argued that the Ural-Altaic typological complex is an areally distinct unit with clear-cut boundaries in every direction against languages of different typology, and that the Ural-Altaic typology must have had one original centre of expansion. As the earliest protolanguages of the Al- taic language families (Proto-Turkic, Proto-Mongolic and Proto-Tungusic) can be traced back to Greater Manchuria (up to Mongolia; Janhunen 1996: 216), this view requires that Pre-Proto-Uralic must also have been present somewhere adjacent to them. According to Janhunen there is no significant chance that Pre-Proto-Uralic could have developed a structural typology so similar to the Altaic languages without being in close contact with them.”

    Problem is when Proto Uralic happened. You said 3,000bc, but I think after 2,000bc when the below picture of kanty and Mansi was drawn. looks like N wipe out the other y Hg. It could be not be happened during broze when R1b was strong.



    However, I think that there was another refuge in Amur area where different languages were spoken, and it is possible that the origin of Na Dene languages is in Amur. The Chinese languages, as Sino-Tibetan languages in general, have been hypothesized to belong to the same macro-family with Na Dene Languages. This could have a geographical basis if this type of languages were spoken in Northeast China and Amur in the post-Ice Age period.
    With these similarities, I refer to broad structural similarities, and I am not thinking in terms of modern language families. It is impossible to reconstruct post-GM language families as long as the relationships between modern families are not clear.
    very interesting that sino tibetan chinese is related to another ANE Q language of Ket, american indian.

    However, still confusing.
    Sergei discovered that OCH(old Chinese) have an interesting stratum of Altaic borrowings which share three common features: "1. The Old Chinese words are usually attested at least starting with Early Zhou (only a few of them are attested later than 6th century B.C.). 2. For none of these words have any Sino-Tibetan parallels been proposed. 3. On the Altaic side, the words are well represented, particularly, in the east (Korean, Japanese and Tungus-Manchu)"[9]. Discussing the impact of this discovery, Sergei mentioned to me that the Neolithic Yangshao culture of the Huang He valley can be associated with those Altaic speakers. The contacts (not peaceful) began when the speakers of OCH reached the Huang He valley and met the local Altaic population.
    Last edited by johen; 10-03-2016 at 03:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen; As the earliest protolanguages of the Al- taic language families (Proto-Turkic, Proto-Mongolic and Proto-Tungusic) can be traced back to Greater Manchuria (up to Mongolia; Janhunen 1996: 216), this view requires that Pre-Proto-Uralic must also have been [B
    present somewhere adjacent to them[/B].

    but I think after 2,000bc when the below picture of kanty and Mansi was drawn. looks like N wipe out the other y Hg. It could be not be happened during broze when R1b was strong.
    The first question may be resolved soon as ancient DNA from Amur should be hopefully coming in the near future.

    I do not understand the logic of your second explanation

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    I do not understand the logic of your second explanation
    As far as I know, Mansi and kanty people originally lived in the south Ural steppe. And their R did not come from European.
    So,


    The problem is when the N came to the mansi and Kanty zone of south Ural steppe, becoming dominant Hg of mansi and kanty people.
    I didn't think that they could during the bronze of R1b yamna, R1a sintasha.
    That is why I think the N of kanty and mansi came after 2,000bc.

    - However, there is another possibility of hg N connection between mistery botai and Kanty and mansi. The botai lived in pit house and Kanty in tipi though.
    Last edited by johen; 10-04-2016 at 07:06 PM.

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    My hunch is that that red component is a mixture of Siberian Glacial Maximum ENA + ANE and PGM EHG and a lot of fresh PGM ENA from China. There is no need for any 'biblical' migration led by a certain yDNA.

    According to Eurogenes K-12 run we have the following admixture results from Altai:
    Okunevo (3800 BP) RISE515, female mtDNA A8a: Nganasan 27%, Naxi 0%, European HG 16%, Afanasievo 30%, Atayal 5%, Pulliyar 0%, Chukchi 4%, Karitiana 18%
    Karasuk (c. 1500-1000 BC) RISE497, female mtDNA A+152+16362: Nganasan 56%, Naxi 19%, European HG 0%, Afanasievo 11%, Atayal 0%, Pulliyar 0%, Chukchi 7%, Karitiana 7%
    Iron Age Afontova Gora (c. 1000 BC) RISE554, male yDNa N-Y6503 (according to Genetiker), mtDNA F1b1b: Nganasan 58%, Naxi 0%, European HG 6%, Afanasievo 17%, Atayal 0%, Pulliyar 0%, Chukchi 8%, Karitiana 12%
    Iron Age Altai RISE600, male yDNA Q1a1b-M25, mtDNA K2a5: Nganasan 25%, Naxi 2%, European HG 13%, Afanasievo 39%, Atayal 5%, Pulliyar 3%, Chukchi 6%, Karitiana 6%
    Modern Altaian: Nganasan 34%, Naxi 36%, European HG 8%, Afanasievo 15%, Atayal 0%, Pulliyar 1%, Chukchi 1%, Bedouin 1,5%, Karitiana 2,6%

    The most significant thing is that from c. 1500 BC, Naxi goes up to reach the modern level which is c. one third of the ancestry of modern Altaians. Chinese are c. 60-70 Naxi and 20-40% Atayal and Japanese 70-75% Naxi and 15-20% Atayal. According to the RISE samples from Altai, it seems that there is hardly any gene flow from China before Karasuk.

    One problem in the picture you posted is that it gives the impression that the Eastern Siberians have completely different ENA from Native Americans which cannot be true. On the other hand, according to Lazaridis' new paper for example the Nganasan component is c. 30% Afontova Gora.
    Last edited by Kristiina; 10-04-2016 at 08:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    As far as I know, Mansi and kanty people originally lived in the south Ural steppe. And their R did not come from European.
    Mansi R1b and R1a haplotypes are not old Western Siberian ANE haplogroups. According to “Y-SNP L1034: limited genetic link between Mansi and Hungarian-speaking populations” Fehér et al 2014:

    “We can safely predict that the four R1b1 males belong to the R1b1-L23*(xM412) cluster, having close matches in the Caucasus according to earlier published data. Two of the three Mansi R1a1-M198 haplotypes belonged to the Eastern European R1a-Z280 subgroup, described by our earlier paper, while one belonged to West Slavic-type R1a-M458."

    So, R1b1 probably came from Caucasus or at least from the area of the old Yamnaya Culture and one R1a1 haplotype could be mediated by Uralic Komis or Maris and R1a-M458 could be a more recent arrival from Russians.

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