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Thread: More Bell Beaker U152 and one ZZ11?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    I think it means there is growing confidence that the oldest DF27 sample has just been identified in Southeastern Germany....pretty close to the oldest U152 sample yet discovered.
    Thankyou Mitchell.
    This is exciting indeed....Makes me wonder how my Df27 made it to England though.

  2. #32
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    Quedlinburg is pretty much central Germany; anyway not southeastern. Say, halfway between Leipzig and Hanover, SW of Magdeburg. The RISE563 and RISE560 Bell Beaker samples (also arguably U152 and DF27, though the latter especially is debatable) are more southeastern, but are not dated.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeb View Post
    Thankyou Mitchell.
    This is exciting indeed....Makes me wonder how my Df27 made it to England though.
    Pure conjecture on my part, but they could have arrived from the continent during late Bronze/early Iron age. That's my theory as to when a majority of U152 arrived in Britain. But it could have been at the very end of the Bell beaker era, or during immigration associated the industrial revolution...or anything in between.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    Quedlinburg is pretty much central Germany; anyway not southeastern. Say, halfway between Leipzig and Hanover, SW of Magdeburg. The RISE563 and RISE560 Bell Beaker samples (also arguably U152 and DF27, though the latter especially is debatable) are more southeastern, but are not dated.
    Sorry getting Osterhofen-Altenmarkt and Quedlinburg mixed up.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
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  5. #35
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    Took at look at another sample last night:

    Sample name: RISE471
    Location: Untermeitingen, Germany
    Age: Middle Bronze Age...from what I can find, that spanned from 1700-1500 BC
    Burial Type: Listed as "barrow", which is the burial practice of the Tumulus Culture
    Previous SNPs: R-P227, R1-P294/PF6112, R1b1a1a2-L150.1/PF6274.1/S351.1, R1b1a1a2a1a-P310/PF6546/S129
    Additional SNP: R1b1a1a2a1a2b1-L2/S139

    L2 is directly below U152 and is its most frequent subclade by far. The L2+read was likely missed by others because the reference genome is actually the derived value. Given the close distance between Untermeitingen and the prior U152+ Bell Beaker sample from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt (200 kilometers), it would seem like U152 had a healthy representation in Bavaria throughout the Bronze Age.

    EDIT: Noticed the burial showed this to be a male but the authors could not confirm it based on sex markers. Not sure if this changes anything however, but hopefully others will check the sample as well.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 09-10-2016 at 04:46 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  7. #36
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    Awesome news... thanks for going back and looking at these samples
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
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  8. #37
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    Would Rich R, or someone else better informed than I, kindly comment on the variety of dates assigned to the sample I0806? I am satisfied with Armando's answer to the question I previously asked, but I wonder why there are two rather wildly variant dates (or spans of dates). And I am even more puzzled by the alternative dating formula displayed for this and other ancient samples near it, in JeanM's table of Copper Age aDNA samples.

    Specifically for I0806, the alternate date is listed as
    (382425 BP)
    . Before what present? If we say 2015 (date of the first two papers), I make that 1734-1684 BC; if we say the "present" is 1950, it's 1899-1849 BC. In neither case would these be Copper Age dates; and the same general formula (~3800 years BP, with a suspiciously small margin of error) is found with other nearby samples in the same table. What am I missing, here? If it's "calibration," with what are they calibrating it? The 11th century AD supernova (spike in the cosmic background radiation) associated with the Crab Nebula?

    I'm not paid enough to figure this stuff out by myself.

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    The 11th century AD supernova (spike in the cosmic background radiation) associated with the Crab Nebula?

    I'm not paid enough to figure this stuff out by myself.
    There's this on I0806's page:

    "Carbon date: MAMS 22820 3823 24
    Archaeological date: 2296-2206 cal BC"

    https://www.oagr.org.au/source/I0806/

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  11. #39
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    Well, I still don't know what those funny "3800 plus-or-minus" type numbers mean; but I found a link to download the Haak et al. 2015 paper, and it was interesting. One detail I had not seen: I0806 was radiocarbon dated with a piece of the "sample" itself (i.e. a piece of Mr. I0806, not associated faunal material found in the burial). And he was >50, not just 50 years old. MAMS 22820 was just the lab ID number for that specimen.

  12. #40
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    I'll make my first post to it!

    🍻 Cheers DF27's! 🍻

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