Genetic Genealogy & Ancient DNA in the News (DISCUSSION ONLY)

[Gravetto-Danubian]

Any input on the mtDNA.

They make sense

[Thatagus]

No, I've heard nothing. To be honest, I came across the information by chance, unsolicited. It was an off-hand comment in a completely unrelated non-genetic discussion. In a reply to someone joking about being a pure man of Indus he said, "Well unless your L-M20, good luck with that".
My ears perked up, and I asked for more details. He wasn't expecting anyone to inquire obviously -- it wasn't such an audience, nor such a discussion -- and no one asked but me. It was more like an inside joke for himself. I have no idea if the person has dog in this fight, so to speak -- and thus, have no idea if the information he shared was "backing" a view. However, because it seems more like he "slipped" the information assuming no one would "know what to do with it", I don't think that's the case. If that was his intent, I'm sure he'd be posting this on AG and not me. I do know he is Indian and seemingly does have the academic connections to be privy to this information.

I knew nothing of what type of haplogroups to expect, or what exactly L-M20 implied, or if what he said was just total BS -- so out of curiosity, I just reported what I heard here, wondering if anyone else had heard the same. It seems since others have heard the same as well, it may have merit. Frankly, I wasn't expecting this chance encounter of randomness to be seconded.

It's found in good frequencies in certain Near Eastern regions as well. Could this be some Elamo-Dravidian connection?

"L-M20 was found in 51% of Syrians from Raqqa, a northern Syrian city in which its previous inhabitants have been wiped out by the Mongol genocides and repopulated in recent times by local Bedouin populations and Chechen war refugees from Russia (El-Sibai 2009). In a small sample of Israeli Druze haplogroup L-M20 was found in 7 out of 20 (35%)."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L-M20

[Romilius]

Either the media hyped the responses up, or Carles Lalueza-Fox is not keeping up with current DNA results.



We know that while the farmers where mostly brown eyed, they were not exactly fair skinned, namely because the predominant European-specific skin pigmentation rs16891982 was ancestral in most EEF, in addition we have Karelia, Samara, and even the Ukranian HG derived from both mutations, the European-specific one, and the Western Eurasian one.



He is saying that most of Western Europe has 40% Kurgan blood, whereas the average in the Iberian peninsula is 50% Neolithic farmer, 30 Kurgan Steppe Pastoralist, and 20% Western Hunter Gatherer.

I'm sorry, but he's not saying that Western Europe has 40% Kurgan blood... he's saying that the 40% of Western Europeans has the Kurgan genetic footprint (= huella)... i.e. a distinctive marker (or markers). For the Iberian Peninsula, instead, he seems to speak about autosomal.

[jeanL]

I'm sorry, but he's not saying that Western Europe has 40% Kurgan blood... he's saying that the 40% of Western Europeans has the Kurgan genetic footprint (= huella)... i.e. a distinctive marker (or markers). For the Iberian Peninsula, instead, he seems to speak about autosomal.

You are right, but I think that was a typo, because otherwise it would imply that 60% of Western Europeans have no Kurgan blood, which we know is not true.

¡hoy el 40% de la población europea occidental porta la huella genética kurgán!

Today 40% of the Western European population bears the Kurgan genetic footprint.

Again, that doesn't make sense, does it?

[ArmandoR1b]

You are right, but I think that was a typo, because otherwise it would imply that 60% of Western Europeans have no Kurgan blood, which we know is not true.



Today 40% of the Western European population bears the Kurgan genetic footprint.

Again, that doesn't make sense, does it?

I agree with you in that what is written in the article is different from what was meant and maybe even stated. He meant that 40% of the DNA of western Europeans is Kurgan and 30% of the DNA of Iberians is Kurgan.

[Romilius]

I agree with you in that what is written in the article is different from what was meant and maybe even stated. He meant that 40% of the DNA of western Europeans is Kurgan and 30% of the DNA of Iberians is Kurgan.

Probably, but I don't agree: that 40% seems to be linked to genetic markers. Before he spoke about the right to reproduce, so, let us do a simple 2+2.

[Kale]

BASQUE_SPANISH
57.4% Iberia_MN
27.4% Yamnaya_Kalmykia
5.9% Armenia_EBA
5.4% Loschbour
4.6% LBK_EN
Noise and counter-damage
0.3% Ulchi
-1.0% Yoruba
Outgroups: Ami, Anatolia_Neolithic, Bichon, Iberia_EN, Iran_Chalcolithic, Karitiana, Kostenki14, Kotias, Papuan, Ust_Ishim, Yamnaya_Samara

ENGLISH_KENT
88.2% Bell_Beaker_Germany
3.4% Iberia_MN
3.2% Iberia_Chalcolithic
1.9% Loschbour
1.8% Armenia_EBA
0.9% Ulchi
0.6% Yoruba
Outgroups: Ami, Anatolia_Neolithic, Bichon, Iberia_EN, Iran_Chalcolithic, Karitiana, Kostenki14, Kotias, Papuan, Ust_Ishim, Yamnaya_Samara

BELL_BEAKER_GERMANY
46.9% Yamnaya_Kalmykia
28.1% LBK_EN
10.1% Iberia_MN
10.0% Hungary_HG
4.1% Armenia_EBA
1.5% Loschbour
0.9% Ulchi
-1.6% Yoruba
Outgroups: Ami, Anatolia_Neolithic, Bichon, Iberia_EN, Iran_Chalcolithic, Karitiana, Kostenki14, Kotias, Papuan, Ust_Ishim, Yamnaya_Samara

.274 ~= .30
.882 X .469 = .4136 ~= .40

[ArmandoR1b]

Probably, but I don't agree: that 40% seems to be linked to genetic markers. Before he spoke about the right to reproduce, so, let us do a simple 2+2.

Yet when the interviewer asked "Also in the Iberian Peninsula?" he answered "Our ancestral substrate is 50% Neolithic, and the other half is divided at about 30% Kurgan and about 20% Hunter Gatherer." So the answer to this question was an expansion on the 40% which clarifies that it meant 40% of western European DNA and not that only 40% of western Europeans had genetic markers found in the Kurgan people. That is also the way Davidski interpreted it with his post where he translated it as "today the Kurgan genetic footprint makes up 40% of the Western European genome"and no one contested that interpretation.

What we interpret him as saying is somewhat similar to the Haak et al. graph at http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...e14317_F3.html

[sweuro]

If it was 40% of west-europeans have Kurgan markers, that would imply 40% of R1b in Western Europe which is not true, so it's 40% ancestry *in western-europeans* . Seems like the media got it wrong.

[ADW_1981]

BASQUE_SPANISH
57.4% Iberia_MN
27.4% Yamnaya_Kalmykia
5.9% Armenia_EBA
5.4% Loschbour
4.6% LBK_EN
Noise and counter-damage
0.3% Ulchi
-1.0% Yoruba
Outgroups: Ami, Anatolia_Neolithic, Bichon, Iberia_EN, Iran_Chalcolithic, Karitiana, Kostenki14, Kotias, Papuan, Ust_Ishim, Yamnaya_Samara

ENGLISH_KENT
88.2% Bell_Beaker_Germany
3.4% Iberia_MN
3.2% Iberia_Chalcolithic
1.9% Loschbour
1.8% Armenia_EBA
0.9% Ulchi
0.6% Yoruba
Outgroups: Ami, Anatolia_Neolithic, Bichon, Iberia_EN, Iran_Chalcolithic, Karitiana, Kostenki14, Kotias, Papuan, Ust_Ishim, Yamnaya_Samara

BELL_BEAKER_GERMANY
46.9% Yamnaya_Kalmykia
28.1% LBK_EN
10.1% Iberia_MN
10.0% Hungary_HG
4.1% Armenia_EBA
1.5% Loschbour
0.9% Ulchi
-1.6% Yoruba
Outgroups: Ami, Anatolia_Neolithic, Bichon, Iberia_EN, Iran_Chalcolithic, Karitiana, Kostenki14, Kotias, Papuan, Ust_Ishim, Yamnaya_Samara

.274 ~= .30
.882 X .469 = .4136 ~= .40

Your first result set on Basque pretty much sums up what Fox could or should have said. 40% "Kurgan" among non-Basque Iberians (I'm implying this data because it's most certainly higher than 27.4% in Basque), ~30% "Kurgan" (27.4%) among Basque Iberians. It's quite interesting because the "Yamnaya" like population that settled in Iberia must have truly headed for the hills and not mixed much with LBK farmers. In contrast, people of UK and Ireland are nearly a spitting image of the Bell Beaker people of central Europe who absorbed the LBK farmers.

Also recall that English_Kent modern population is shifted towards France/Spain in modern day, where as the the modern "Celtic" fringes of UK/Ireland tend to resemble their Iron Age and Anglo-Saxon counterparts in being slightly closer to Yamnaya. I've speculated elsewhere why this might be. In other words, English_Kent could be picking up slightly more Iberian_MN signal.