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Thread: Genetic Genealogy & Ancient DNA in the News (DISCUSSION ONLY)

  1. #441
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Snorri tabulated those myths that he thought were becoming lost with his Christianity. There is an Asgard mentioned - perhaps you could point to Asgard in the Bible or Josephus. To me it is closer to classical Sagartia and even closer to Old Persian Asgart - fort of the asiatics/horse people, and the Vanir connection goes further to the PIE period.
    I know that you are a lover of the written text, as of course I am, as an historian. But any good historian has to weigh the value of a source. That is what we are expected to do. And I don't see modern Scandinavian historians believing every word of the Ynglinga Saga. It is interesting for sure. But what it actually means needs careful analysis. I am no expert on it, so I'm not going to pretend that I know where 'Asgard' came from. But I do need to do more work on the chapter of the coming book that contains it. So I might find out!

    I also have IE myths on my reading list.

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  3. #442
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    Quote Originally Posted by khanabadoshi View Post
    So I don't know if this has been discussed, but I heard from somebody who knows an archeologist at the Rakhigarhi site.
    They are going to release a paper later in the year and 80-90% of the samples were y-HG L-M20.

    I will inquire for more details. I can't verify the authenticity of the man's claims.
    I've heard the same.

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  5. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    I've heard the same.
    How credible is the sourcing?
    While it would not be surprising at all that IVC folk were L-M20, what I don't get is why for some reason these people did not move east.

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  7. #444
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    How credible is the sourcing?
    While it would not be surprising at all that IVC folk were L-M20, what I don't get is why for some reason these people did not move east.
    Let's wait and see.

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  9. #445
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Extract from Ancestral Journeys:



    I'm pretty sure that this topic has been debated before on this forum.
    The only quote we have is this? That too indirect.
    "Pytheas says that the Gutones, a people of Germany, inhabit the shores of an estuary of the ocean ... at one day's sail from this territory is the Isle of Abalus, upon the shores of which, amber is thrown up by the waves in spring ... the inhabitants ... sell it to their neighbours, the Teutones."

    First why are these Gutones Goths? Who established that identity. From Jordanes at least we know that while he was himself one of the Getae who he mentions as equivalent to Goths. So one can say that Getae=Goths (albeit barely "Getae we have proved in a previous passage to be Goths, on the testimony of Orosius Paulus").

    Ammianus Marcellinus, perhaps the Roman equivalent of Herodotus, in his work never seems to give the Goths a Scandinavian origin. And in his time Romans were were truly encountering Goths. If not for Jordanes (or his source) and his Scanzda story the Goths never would have been ascribed a Scandinavian origin.

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  11. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    The only quote we have is this? That too indirect.
    "Pytheas says that the Gutones, a people of Germany, inhabit the shores of an estuary of the ocean ... at one day's sail from this territory is the Isle of Abalus, upon the shores of which, amber is thrown up by the waves in spring ... the inhabitants ... sell it to their neighbours, the Teutones."

    First why are these Gutones Goths? Who established that identity. From Jordanes at least we know that while he was himself one of the Getae who he mentions as equivalent to Goths. So one can say that Getae=Goths (albeit barely "Getae we have proved in a previous passage to be Goths, on the testimony of Orosius Paulus").

    Ammianus Marcellinus, perhaps the Roman equivalent of Herodotus, in his work never seems to give the Goths a Scandinavian origin. And in his time Romans were were truly encountering Goths. If not for Jordanes (or his source) and his Scanzda story the Goths never would have been ascribed a Scandinavian origin.
    ADNA will sort out the Goths too, and we'll see which historian was correct, and who was a liar

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    The only quote we have is this? That too indirect.
    "Pytheas says that the Gutones, a people of Germany, inhabit the shores of an estuary of the ocean ... at one day's sail from this territory is the Isle of Abalus, upon the shores of which, amber is thrown up by the waves in spring ... the inhabitants ... sell it to their neighbours, the Teutones."

    First why are these Gutones Goths? Who established that identity. From Jordanes at least we know that while he was himself one of the Getae who he mentions as equivalent to Goths. So one can say that Getae=Goths (albeit barely "Getae we have proved in a previous passage to be Goths, on the testimony of Orosius Paulus").

    Ammianus Marcellinus, perhaps the Roman equivalent of Herodotus, in his work never seems to give the Goths a Scandinavian origin. And in his time Romans were were truly encountering Goths. If not for Jordanes (or his source) and his Scanzda story the Goths never would have been ascribed a Scandinavian origin.
    It seems there where only one type of Goths that migrated south from the baltic sea area to the black sea, then they split over time ( the goths where in the black sea area for over 200 years ) , the Visi ( western or pure ) goths and a century later the others became the Ostro ( eastern ) goths who where the ones that absorbed the bulk of the sarmatian people into gothic society...........so Visigoths went to Spain and Africa and the ostrogoths stayed in Italy and the western Balkans.

    The Romanian at work ( who speaks also Latin , unbelievable ) says the getae where goths mixed with dacians
    Last edited by vettor; 02-21-2017 at 04:59 AM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    ADNA will sort out the Goths too, and we'll see which historian was correct, and who was a liar
    AFAIK paleogeneticists from Denmark were planning to study Crimean Goths. Unfortunately I don't know details, it was just briefly mentioned by one Russian scholar:
    http://polit.ru/article/2016/09/17/vinogradov_lecture/

    Еще проблема – все-таки, мы сегодня без политики не обойдемся – как в Крым приехать специалистам по ДНК. Пока это могут сделать только российские, хотя, вроде, тут какие-то датчане засобирались в Крым, заниматься ДНК-исследованиями. Но это пока – дело будущего, пока это – осторожная гипотеза, поэтому я боюсь сравнивать.

    Another problem - after all, we cannot avoid politics yoday - is how DNA specialists can visit Crimea. As of now this may be done only by Russian specialists, though, it seems, there's some Danes planning to go to Crimea, to engage in DNA research. But this is - thing of the future, it is - a cautious hypothesis, so I'm afraid to compare.

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  17. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Such a pity that it isn't true! The tale of Odin in the Ynglinga Saga is a Medieval myth. Exactly the same as all the other European myths of Scythian origin that are based on the Bible. Obviously we would love it to be true, because by coincidence (sort of), we know that the homeland of the Indo-Europeans was right there on the European steppe. But the movement from there to Scandinavia was too deep in the past for recollection by the time that stories were written down. It was the Bible and the commentary on it by Josephus that supplied the story of the peopling of Europe from "Scythia". See http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/originstories.shtml

    By contrast the Prose Edda has Odin descended from King Priam of Troy. The influence there is Classical rather than Biblical. But there is one interesting touch. The author of the Prose Edda shrewdly notes that those names of Nordic forefathers that were written down are all in the language still spoken in the region, which he assumes came from Asia. By contrast, he notes, in England there are ancient lists of land-names and place-names which appear to be in another tongue. Here was indeed proof that the English had supplanted another people (the Romano-British) at a time not so far in the past as to leave no clues, whereas in truth the origins of the Germani were too deep in the past to leave written traces. Stories were therefore invented to fill the gap in knowledge, before archaeology, linguistics and genetics were available.
    Excellent post, Jean. Some claim that the Scythians' progenitor was Japheth, son of Magog. Linking to him was another way that panegyrists could boost the standing/legitimacy of whoever they supported. The Scots did something similar to boost their desire to maintain their independence from England. Also, some Scottish clans wove Norse tales into their clan histories for various reasons.
    On a slightly different tack: every other dark-haired Scot I've met tells me their colouring was via a shipwrecked Spanish Armada sailor who was washed ashore in Argyll or wherever!
    Last edited by castle3; 02-21-2017 at 01:26 PM.

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  19. #450
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