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Thread: Evidence for African and Middle Eastern ancestry in Bell Beaker, and implications

  1. #11
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    Given that Italian Chalcolithic is geographically much closer to Central Europe, why not use it in your calculations?

    Either way, what doe this all mean?... for one, we are looking at a dominant male replacement in both Iberia and Italy (except Sardinia) that is due to Bell Beaker and R1b lineages....

    Spain-Chalcolithic:
    Haplogroup I = 6 of 9 = 67%
    Haplogroup G = 2 of 9 = 22%
    Haplogroup H = 1 of 9 = 11%

    Italy-Chalcolithic:
    Haplogroup I = 3 of 4 = 75%
    Haplogroup G = 25%

    We know that those two populations plot with modern Sardinians which is... surprise, surprise... the place where I2a and G2a survived best in SW Europe. So, while some R1b expansion out-of-Iberia may have occurred, those males seem to have expanded into Iberia a few hundred years before that. That Chalcolithic Portuguese mtDNA is overwhelmingly H is also a data point in that direction. This is the likeliest, albeit not only, explanation.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  3. #12
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    Unfortunately, data for them were not present in the D-stats based datasheet. Good suggestion, will ask David if they can be included.

    Will a 'reflux' model between Southwest Europe and Central Europe work archaeologically?

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  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Will a 'reflux' model between Southwest Europe and Central Europe work archaeologically?
    Certainly... it is Sangmeister's Rückstrom Model and has been around since the 1960s... (EDIT: although that would account for only a re-re-expansion back from Central Europe)
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 06-29-2016 at 01:10 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  7. #14
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    Adding Italian Chalcolitic too should be interesting

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  9. #15
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    Are the Rise Beakers excluded from that? They aren't UDG treated and some show African, like a few other Rise samples. Also, only one of the Hungary EN is actually EN. That is I1508. There are a few poor Iberian CA samples too. I can narrow down the list for samples to use and run those Dstats for nMonte.

  10. #16
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    That sounds great, please do so.

    I actually don't think David's explanations cut it, because with the non-specific diversity introduced by deamination, the fit should deprove with Africans added, but here the fit improves with Africans added. But we'll see.

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  12. #17
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    As this signal in German Beakers has been found, do the Rathlin Island genomes (2026–1534 cal BC) show any trace of this Iberian Chalcolithic signal? Would be interesting to see, especially as these burials were also beaker burials with a possible Rhine Beaker source perhaps?
    Last edited by Bas; 06-29-2016 at 06:20 PM.

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    This would fit the models proposed by Dr Anatole Klyosov

    Ancient History of the Arbins, Bearers of Haplogroup R1b, from Central Asia to Europe, 16,000 to 1500 Years before Present

    https://www.academia.edu/4222630/DNA...Ancient_Europe
    http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperIn...?paperID=19567

    And Olympus Mons

    From Shulaveri - Shumo to Bell Beaker (origin in the Kura Araxes valley)

    http://blogs.sapo.pt/cloud/file/eb6b...l%20beaker.pdf

    Both models argue for a North Africa, "Green Sahara" route from the Caucasus to Iberia and expansion as Bell Beaker.
    Last edited by Heber; 06-29-2016 at 07:15 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heber View Post
    This would fit the models proposed by Dr Anatole Klyosov... Both models argue for a North Africa, "Green Sahara" route from the Caucasus to Iberia and expansion as Bell Beaker.
    But there is no archaeological or genetic support for this model.

    If we understand that the Iberian Neolithic essentially came from the Near East, then we are not suprised to find Iberian Neolithic samples showing an affinity genetically with the Near East. And when people arrived in Iberia bringing copper-working and anthropomorphic stelae that give away their route from the steppe via the Carpathian Basin, we should not be at all surprised to find them mixing with the locals and gaining a bit of an Iberian Neolithic genetic flavour.

    Picture hunky male copper prospectors arriving without their women and attracting the attention of local females with their shiny copper bangles and beads. Although some might go home and fetch the wife, some might be perfectly happy with a charming Iberian farmer's daughter. Picture the scene several hundred years later when conflict seems to have marred the local scene and some Bell Beaker families decide to go back to the Old Country i.e. the Carpathian Basin. They would be pretty solidly R1b (if I am right), but autosomally mixed with Iberian Neolithic.
    Last edited by Jean M; 06-29-2016 at 08:30 PM.

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  18. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heber View Post
    This would fit the models proposed by Dr Anatole Klyosov

    Ancient History of the Arbins, Bearers of Haplogroup R1b, from Central Asia to Europe, 16,000 to 1500 Years before Present

    https://www.academia.edu/4222630/DNA...Ancient_Europe
    http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperIn...?paperID=19567

    And Olympus Mons

    From Shulaveri - Shumo to Bell Beaker (origin in the Kura Araxes valley)

    http://blogs.sapo.pt/cloud/file/eb6b...l%20beaker.pdf

    Both models argue for a North Africa, "Green Sahara" route from the Caucasus to Iberia and expansion as Bell Beaker.
    Not sure how you interpret that.. all data points show the exact opposite, especially that African ancestry drops from Iberian Chalcolithic to German Bell Beaker.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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