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Thread: Lazaridis et al: The genetic structure of the world's first farmers (pre-print)

  1. #181
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    I'm more convinced than ever that the R1b guys were too busy sniffing their butts west and eastwards across northern Eurasia to have anything to do with any of these "southerner" activities. It does beg the question how and when the R1b-V88 guy crossed southern Europe into the Levant and Libya before moving south of the Sahara.

    I just noticed a YDNA T in PPNB, any thoughts if the undifferentiated CT could be anything else? I guess we need to see the raw data. Perhaps it's actually H2... that would fit the EEF model nice and clean.
    Last edited by ADW_1981; 06-17-2016 at 09:48 PM.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster 1100 BC
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Field: R-U106
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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  3. #182
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    albert einstein belong to e-z830 subclade indid 3 more mutations on the road for him
    but still
    he is descendnet of this natufians lol
    http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project/kitnum/N65053
    http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project/cluster/4
    best regards
    adam

    p.s i agree that some of the ppnb samples that are could be e-m78 but yes more likely z-830

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  5. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odyss View Post
    Nothing surpriding in the présence of e1b in the Natufians. The grain collectors first appeared in the Nile Valley , and then spread among the Natufians. Fairly likely those E1b Natufians descended from the men that introduced grain collection.
    We'll need to test many more samples to confirm or infirm that, like I said the Mushabians are definitely at the top of the list, the Qadan culture as well, Kebaran samples would be pretty useful too. I think we should avoid making the same mistake we made when Lazaridis et al. 2013 came out by assuming that this somehow is the last word on the Paleolithic Near East, what we need is a study like the one on Ice Age Europe which came out earlier this year.

    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    I'm more convinced than ever that the R1b guys were too busy sniffing their butts west and eastwards across northern Eurasia to have anything to do with any of these "southerner" activities. It does beg the question how and when the R1b-V88 guy crossed southern Europe into the Levant and Libya before moving south of the Sahara.

    I just noticed a YDNA T in PPNB, any thoughts if the undifferentiated CT could be anything else? I guess we need to see the raw data.
    That's also one of the first questions I asked myself when I read the paper, I guess ancient data from North Africa (Egypt) would provide an answer to that question.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 06-17-2016 at 09:48 PM.
    מְכֹרֹתַיִךְ וּמֹלְדֹתַיִךְ מֵאֶרֶץ הַכְּנַעֲנִי אָבִיךְ הָאֱמֹרִי וְאִמֵּךְ חִתִּית
    יחזקאל פרק טז פסוק ג-

    אֲרֵי יִצְרָא לִבָּא דַּאֲנָשָׁא בִּישׁ מִזְּעוּרֵיהּ
    בראשית פרק ח פסוק כא-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  7. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    I just noticed a YDNA T in PPNB, any thoughts if the undifferentiated CT could be anything else? I guess we need to see the raw data.
    A question I was wondering about as well. If all of those CT men are indeed a variety of T, that would be a pretty significant percentage of Y-DNA T found in the ancient Levant.

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  9. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    Well spotted. As Coldmountains suggests, we have every reason to suspect something EHG-like* was already in Central Asia before Sintashta-Arkaim/Petrovka began expanding out of the Urals around 2200 B.C., going by the Y-DNA R parahaplogroups present in the region.

    What is the age of the Hotu cave sample? If it's older than 2200 B.C., then, this idea of everything resembling EHG only coming from the LBA IE steppe migrations can be dismissed automatically.

    [Edit]: Okay, Hotu cave is located in northern Iran and is over 9kya; unless I'm misreading the datapoints from which our aDNA comes from, that could only mean the EHG-like material in Hotu derived from the east (Central Asia). That is consistent with the scenario you describe, indeed.
    Yep but it had only 1% EHG admixture
    They don't look at EHG in Neolithic Iran sample, but doesn't seem much ,
    Obviously it's a solid amount in CHG as well as Chalcolithic Armenia (both ~ 20%)

    So I think this angle needs a closer look

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  11. #186
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    I find interesting what Herodotus says about Egyptians and agriculture:

    And Certes, in thus speaking of the Greeks the Egyptians say nothing but what is true. But now let me tell the Egyptians how the case stands with themselves. If, as I said before, the country below Memphis, which is the land that is always rising, continues to increase in height at the rate at which it has risen in times gone by, how will it be possible for the inhabitants of that region to avoid hunger, when they will certainly have no rain, and the river will not be able to overflow their cornlands? At present, it must be confessed, they obtain the fruits of the field with less trouble than any other people in the world, the rest of the Egyptians included, since they have no need to break up the ground with the plough, nor to use the hoe, nor to do any of the work which the rest of mankind find necessary if they are to get a crop; but the husbandman waits till the river has of its own accord spread itself over the fields and withdrawn again to its bed, and then sows his plot of ground, and after sowing turns his swine into it- the swine tread in the corn - after which he has only to await the harvest. The swine serve him also to thrash the grain, which is then carried to the garner.
    That doesn't mean much but it can mean that these techniques that they didn't use may have been invented by other people who didn't have the advantages these Egyptians had. It's also possible that other Egyptians invented them though.
    It seems that they didn't need to do much more than the grain collectors did. (they did sow)

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  13. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arbogan View Post
    No offense intended . But frankly find this practice of calling thousands of years old mutations after modern day nationalities and ethnicities quite baseless and inane. Unless the subclade coalsenced during the time when the group and it's identity existed in question. There might be a correlation and assocation. But it doesn't deviate from the fact that these haplogroups are older than contemporary groups. Hence i'd avoid calling any haplogroup, "Iranian, Georgian, Turkish, Egyptian, Arab". If anything these studies themselves show that these haplogroups are prehistoric.
    That's why I had "Georgian" in brackets.

    That child wasn't Georgian cause Georgians in a modern sense of word (probably) arose after a mixture of LN Zagross, Natufians and CHG. Same can be said about all the other ethnic groups of Middle East and Caucasus.

    What I really am quite certain about is that these remains belong to a member of groups that spoke proto-Kartvelian language. And I believe that this is a very strong possibility.

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  15. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Yep but it had only 1% EHG admixture
    They don't look at EHG in Neolithic Iran sample, but doesn't seem much ,
    Obviously it's a solid amount in CHG as well as Chalcolithic Armenia (both ~ 20%)

    So I think this angle needs a closer look
    Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I think the chart you're interpreting (Figure 4a) is showing 9.4% and not 1%. Please note "Iran_Hotulllb" shows an admixture direction from Iran_N (0.906, or 90.6%) and EHG (0.094, or 9.4%), with both adding up to 1.000/100%.

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  17. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I think the chart you're interpreting (Figure 4a) is showing 9.4% and not 1%. Please note "Iran_Hotulllb" shows an admixture direction from Iran_N (0.906, or 90.6%) and EHG (0.094, or 9.4%), with both adding up to 1.000/100%.
    You are forgiven, and thanked
    Makes a wee difference, then
    I was thinking the Belt Caves must have more EHG than measly 1%

    That points to need for samples from northeast Iran, inner Asian mountains (Kopet , Pamirs) and the Indus to confirm models

    What happens if they try to model south Asians with Iranian Chalcolithic instead of Neol.? That'll reduce steppe admixture needed , intuitively
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 06-17-2016 at 10:21 PM.

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  19. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    A question I was wondering about as well. If all of those CT men are indeed a variety of T, that would be a pretty significant percentage of Y-DNA T found in the ancient Levant.
    If CT isn't CT it could be DE or CF. (?) The first one seems more probable. LT is descendant of haplogroup K like N, O, M, P, Q, R, S.
    I hope I din't say something wrong.
    Last edited by Kanenas; 06-17-2016 at 10:20 PM.

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