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Thread: The genetic landscape of Iran and the legacy of Zoroastrianism

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    I reckon a Villabruna-like population lived in Anatolia and down the coast into the Levant, and its ancestry was diluted by the expansion of the Basal Eurasians from Arabia or Iran.
    Big Call !

    I cannot recall reading any evidence for the said migration. I see the coastal Levant as the most densely settled part of the (Late UP) Near - Mid East. As I mentioned earlier, I think the Villabruna-like population is a back-flow from "Europe" (sensu latu) , with phenomena as the Levantine Aurignacian and Epigravettian moving to Anatolia, the Levant & south Caucasus.

    Maybe Agamemnon can give his opinion ?
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 06-14-2016 at 01:30 PM.

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    It seems that Davidski has some insider information and perhaps some raw data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    I reckon a Villabruna-like population lived in Anatolia and down the coast into the Levant, and its ancestry was diluted by the expansion of the Basal Eurasians from Arabia or Iran.
    My private intuitions regarding what happened in the prehistoric Near-East coincides with yours. The "UHG-WHG" frequencies your calculators picked up in the past seem to match this quite well.

    The Gulf Oasis Hypothesis might be a great "fit" for the ultimate source of BE (as an aside, I like their use of "Arabo-Persian Gulf", the most politically and geographically neutral assignment to that body of water alongside "the Gulf").

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  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Big Call !

    I cannot recall reading any evidence for the said migration. I see the coastal Levant as the most densely settled part of the (Late UP) Near - Mid East. As I mentioned earlier, I think the Villabruna-like population is a back-flow from "Europe" (sensu latu) , with phenomena as the Levantine Aurignacian and Epigravettian moving to Anatolia, the Levant & south Caucasus.

    Maybe Agamemnon can give his opinion ?
    I'm not exactly sure Villabruna-type populations were all that common in the Levant, though I agree with you as far as Epigravettian movement to Anatolia and the Caucasus is of concern. Kebaran and Mushabian data is an absolute must if we are to understand what was going on in the Levant during the UP, in fact Mushabian samples could even provide useful hints in the Afroasiatic homeland debate.

    I also agree with DMXX, the Pleistocene Gulf Oasis might well turn out to be a very good fit for Basal Eurasian, alternatively it might not be, nevertheless it really isn't as crazy a theory as it might look at first glance, there's a reason why I think the Gulf Oasis is strong candidate for J's homeland.
    מְכֹרֹתַיִךְ וּמֹלְדֹתַיִךְ מֵאֶרֶץ הַכְּנַעֲנִי אָבִיךְ הָאֱמֹרִי וְאִמֵּךְ חִתִּית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-

    אֲרֵי יִצְרָא לִבָּא דַּאֲנָשָׁא בִּישׁ מִזְּעוּרֵיהּ
    בראשית פרק ח כא-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    One factor that can make one Iranian group more similar to the Neolithic sample than others, is if the group has experienced less non Neolithic Iranian admixture than the rest, perhaps due to the group's isolation (zoroastrians). Conversely, an Iranian group can test less similar to NI, if that group, has received more admixture from a group which is highly drifted from NI, post the split-up of the core Iranic group.

    They apparently have multiple Neolithic genomes from Iran, although the rest are low coverage. I plan to incorporate any genome available with greater than 1x coverage into my project Gedrosia, after the first paper is published

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurd View Post
    One factor that can make one Iranian group more similar to the Neolithic sample than others, is if the group has experienced less non Neolithic Iranian admixture than the rest, perhaps due to the group's isolation (zoroastrians). Conversely, an Iranian group can test less similar to NI, if that group, has received more admixture from a group which is highly drifted from NI, post the split-up of the core Iranic group.
    History doesn't really permit for the first scenario. Modern Iranians are, per history, largely descended from Zoroastrians who converted to Islam since Mohammad's time (first Sunnism through various mechanisms, then Shi'ism through direct Safavid force). There is hardly anything about Yazdi Iranian Zoroastrians which would make them specifically more early Neolithic Iranian shifted than other populations. They are a bottleneck remnant of a Medieval Sassanian era central Iranian population who sought refuge in the mountains to avoid the potential for discrimination in that period of turbulence, thereafter enduring semi-isolation following the eventual conversion of Iranians to Islam (who, ironically, have historically persecuted them far more than the conquering Arabs ever had).
    The same pattern described in this paper is observed among other central and southwestern Iranians with respect to this South-Central Asian affinity (perhaps this also explains the phenomenon you picked up in Kurds?). Given ADMIXTURE has correctly predicted our current aDNA outcomes (f.ex. "Mediterranean" = EEF, "West Asian" = CHG), one can justify some confidence in the outcomes being reproduced with more robust analyses here.

    As an aside, the early Neolithic Iranians probably had little relation to the "actual" Iranians who reached Iran (i.e. the Indo-European-speaking Iron Age populations with steppe-derived cultural motifs), aside from distant co-relation brought about through the BMAC connection and any accumulative admixture that occurred during their westward expansion (ditto for the proto-Mitanni). These people certainly weren't core Iranics, unless one subscribes to Renfrew's (obsolete IMO) Anatolian hypothesis.

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    I honestly do not agree that regional varation has been completely changed in iran due immigration. While one does lose some variation due to man-made causes(Conquest, massacres). The area might have experienced partial changes to some extent and introduced non-native elements. But largely the areas have remained the same after the prehistoric post-neolithic era. Unless there is direct replacement(such as arabs replacing the populace in southern mesopotamia and the mesopotamian gulf) or large scale immigration. Even areas in the middle-east(such as turkey and azerbaijan) largely remain the same as their previous state. I can give the historic example of loorestan f.ex. The area was decimated by the mongols, and khorramabad(the capital) was pillaged and burnt by the timurids. Many people were wiped out, and the agricultural infrastructure was ruined. But the local people, the survivors, adopted nomadism. And most of the large clans survived. The samething can be said about the georgians. They have retained their own unique genetic profile. Despite being conquered and decimated many times throughout history.
    Last edited by Arbogan; 06-14-2016 at 05:32 PM.

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    Iranian Zoroastrian Y-DNA is remarkably similar to Other Iranian groups, regardless of language (Azeri Oghuz Turkic, and Kurdish NW Iranic).




    http://dienekes.blogspot.co.uk/2012/...iation-in.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arbogan View Post
    I honestly do not agree that regional varation has been completely changed in iran due immigration. While one does lose some variation due to man-made causes(Conquest, massacres). The area might have experienced partial changes to some extent and introduced non-native elements. But largely the areas have remained the same after the prehistoric post-neolithic era. Unless there is direct replacement(such as arabs replacing the populace in southern mesopotamia and the mesopotamian gulf) or large scale immigration. Even areas in the middle-east(such as turkey and azerbaijan) largely remain the same as their previous state. I can give the historic example of loorestan f.ex. The area was decimated by the mongols, and khorramabad(the capital) was pillaged and burnt by the timurids. Many people were wiped out, and the agricultural infrastructure was ruined. But the local people, the survivors, adopted nomadism. And most of the large clans survived. The samething can be said about the georgians. They have retained their own unique genetic profile. Despite being conquered and decimated many times throughout history.
    People overinterpret what was said in the abstract and we have to see how much closer Zoraostrians are to Neolithic Iranians. There is hardly any evidence for any kind of population replacement in Iran since the Bronze Age. The genetic profile of Iranians was shaped in the Bronze Age and Late Neolithic Age in my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Norfolk L-M20 View Post
    and I'm waiting for my Y-hg L to turn up there. My nearest 111 STR match provenances to East Iran. My terminal SNP has so far only been shared in a sample from a Balochi speaker in Makran, SW Pakistan. An Azores provenance tester at 67 markers ()my second closest, has a marker value that has previously been associated with Parsi. A lot of signs of Palaeolithic Iran being a key to L. Was it still there during the Neolithic.
    Parsis from Pakistan are around 13.3% L1b. 18% L in total, they have all major L subclades other than L1c.



    http://prr.hec.gov.pk/Chapters/1026S-4.pdf

    From another study, Non-Zoroastrian Persians from Yazd get 11% L. Very similar to Parsis in general but they get higher R1a and lower J2.


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