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Thread: R1 Native American dispersion hypothesis into Western Europe

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    R1 Native American dispersion hypothesis into Western Europe

    R1 dispersion has been a bit of an enigma, however all of the pieces start to fall into place with my hypothesis that R1 entered Western Europe from the Americas. Everyone has been ignoring the the obvious dispersion of R1 branching. From strictly a population dispersion point of view, you can see the obvious. Anyone looking at this map without preconceived notions can see that R1 split into R1a and R1b along the Rhine or in Denmark.

    Screen Shot 2016-05-23 at 8.38.07 AM.jpg

    Anybody looking at the Global dispersion of R1 and mt-haplogroup X can see how they may have come from the Americas and pushed East.

    Screen Shot 2016-05-23 at 8.39.47 AM.png

    Despite what seems obvious and it's brother, haplogroup Q's, migration into the Americas, it was always argued that there has been no ancient YDNA for R1 found in Western Europe that would match an Ice Age migration from the Americas. Now there is! In a study published in nature, there was 14,000 YBP YDNA for R1b1( L278 ) found in Northern Italy. This is well into the Ice Age. Prior to this, the oldest R1* was found in Mal’ta Siberia and dated as 24,000 years ago. For years, people have tried to figure out how did R1b get dispersed West of R1a. It’s seems everyone has been scratching their brain on the bizarre dispersement of R1. You’ll find that everything falls into place if you conclude that R1 migrated into the Americas and then into Western Europe. This even explains the 40 SNP equivalents bottleneck. Here I’ve labeled the arrival into Europe as 21,000 YBP, however it could be closer to 14,000 YBP. I chose 21,000 YPB to line it up with Solutrean culture which used arrow head technology similar to American Clovis. So far there haven’t been any pre-clovis sites with this technology found. But just like with R1b1 ancient YDNA in Europe, I say keep looking. Another interesting fact is that both peoples became mound builders, however I’m not sure the dates line up for burial mounds that old. However drastic landscapes changes occur over 14,000 years.

    This hypothesis can easily be proven out by NGS testing R1* Native Americans. If they break up the 40 R1* equivalents then the evidence is irrefutable.

    Screen Shot 2016-05-23 at 8.41.17 AM.jpg

    One of the major arguments in opposition is that R1 people are related to Yamnaya people so they must have come from the East. I counter argue, that Yamnaya people descend from Western Europeans, not the other way around. Let’s take the bellow tree which helps illustrate a possible stemming out of Europe. The Yamnaya people appear to have migrated from Europe to the Steppes in the bronze age.

    Screen Shot 2016-05-23 at 8.42.24 AM.jpg

    This may be circumstantial evidence, but it’s worth noting that Algonquin and Gaelic have some similarities.

    Screen Shot 2016-05-23 at 8.43.23 AM.png

    Other useful links connecting North American DNA to European DNA:

    http://sciencenordic.com/dna-links-n...cans-europeans

    http://www.nature.com/news/americas-...-roots-1.14213

    https://www.academia.edu/9494507/Ano...n_the_Cherokee

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-954675.html

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneti...#Haplogroup_R1

    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...re17993-s1.pdf

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4105016/

    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture12736.html

    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...re12736-s1.pdf
    Last edited by McCown; 05-23-2016 at 05:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McCown View Post
    R1 dispersion has been a bit of an enigma, however all of the pieces start to fall into place with my hypothesis that R1 entered Western Europe from the Americas. ....

    .... Youíll find that everything falls into place if you conclude that R1 migrated into the Americas and then into Western Europe. This even explains the 40 SNP equivalents bottleneck. Here Iíve labeled the arrival into Europe as 21,000 YBP, however it could be closer to 14,000 YBP. I chose 21,000 YPB to line it up with Solutrean culture which used arrow head technology similar to American Clovis. So far there havenít been any pre-clovis sites with this technology found. But just like with R1b1 ancient YDNA in Europe, I say keep looking. Another interesting fact is that both peoples became mound builders, however Iím not sure the dates line up for burial mounds that old. However drastic landscapes changes occur over 14,000 years.

    This hypothesis can easily be proven out by NGS testing R1* Native Americans. If they break up the 40 R1* equivalents then the evidence is irrefutable.

    Screen Shot 2016-05-23 at 8.41.17 AM.jpg

    One of the major arguments in opposition is that R1 people are related to Yamnaya people so they must have come from the East. I counter argue, that Yamnaya people descend from Western Europeans, not the other way around. Letís take the bellow tree which helps illustrate a possible stemming out of Europe. The Yamnaya people appear to have migrated from Europe to the Steppes in the bronze age.

    Screen Shot 2016-05-23 at 8.42.24 AM.jpg
    ...
    Thank you for posting your hypothesis. It is something think about it.

    Do we have R1* found in Native American tribes? or in the far northeast of Asia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Thank you for posting your hypothesis. It is something think about it.

    Do we have R1* found in Native American tribes? or in the far northeast of Asia?
    According to Wikipedia, yes. But I don't have access to any of the data that is quoted here:

    R1 (M137) is found predominantly in North American Algonquian groups like the Ojibwe (79%), Chipewyan (62%), Seminole (50%), Cherokee (47%), Dogrib (40%) and Papago (38%). The principal-component analysis suggests a close genetic relatedness between some North American Amerindians (the Chipewyan and the Cheyenne) and certain populations of central/southern Siberia (particularly the Kets, Yakut, Selkup, and Altais), at the resolution of major Y-chromosome haplogroups. This pattern agrees with the distribution of mtDNA haplogroup X, which is found in North America, is absent from eastern Siberia, but is present in the Altais of southern central Siberia.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplog...#North_America

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_...f_the_Americas

    I think X is also found in the Gobi Desert.

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    While I don't agree that R1 came from North America, the hypothesis is intriguing and certainly worthy of respect and consideration. I was not aware of the frequency of R1-M173* among Algonquian Amerindians. Now that is fascinating and may be indicative of the presence in Siberia of R1 when the Beringian bridge was still intact. I tend to think it rather supports Davidski's notion that eastern Europe was the R1 bifurcation zone.

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    Ah yes, a reverse Solutrean hypothesis, which itself has mostly been relegated as a kind of pseudo-science with no factual basis
    And 14, 000 YBP isn't "well into the ice age". It's 6, 000 years after the peak LGM
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 05-23-2016 at 11:38 PM.

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    It's not R1*, it's just R1 not tested for downstream markers, and no mystery where it comes from. Albeit there is the very occasional R1* which may be V88 or what have you. While it is possible some native R1 clade exists, it has yet to be identified.
    Last edited by Megalophias; 05-23-2016 at 11:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    It's not R1*, it's just R1 not tested for downstream markers, and no mystery where it comes from. While it is possible some native R1 clade exists, it has yet to be found.
    Speaking specifically of those Algonquian R1's, are you saying none of them was tested for any downstream markers, including the most basic ones?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    It's not R1*, it's just R1 not tested for downstream markers, and no mystery where it comes from. While it is possible some native R1 clade exists, it has yet to be found.
    A Puerto Rican research sample has been classified as R1b-L389* by YFull. His patrilineage diverged from R1b-P297 about 17,000 years ago. Is his patrilineage Native American or Spanish (or something else)?

    I must point out the disturbing tendency in academic publications to discard all Native American R1b, a priori, as European admixture.

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    I myself have considered an America-to-Europe hypothesis to explain how:
    - Q-M3 is almost entirely Native American
    - Its direct brother Q-L804 is entirely Northwest European
    Yet they diverged 15,000 years ago.

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    http://www.academia.edu/9562579/Solu...th_in_the_room

    “In geographic plots, R1 frequencies in native populations, of the Great Lakes/ Algonquian-speakers stand out as the great majority, having among the highest worldwide R1 rates (e.g., Malhi et al. 2008; and World frequency map as of 1 June 2014), even higher than non-western Europe and far higher than other Native Americans (c. 0 – 10 per cent). When further characterized in the USA (Hammer et al. 2005), 97 per cent of R1 had the M269 SNP (unambiguous Single Nucleotide Polymorphism), which defines R1b1b, the main West European Y-haplogroup, which possibly originated there before the LGM (Morelli et al. 2010). The less-reliable P25 was used in an earlier US study (Zegura et al. 2004).
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
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