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Thread: Y-DNA haplogroups in Silesia before WW2

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    Post Y-DNA haplogroups in Silesia before WW2

    In several Projects of Family Tree DNA I've gathered all samples from people born before WW2 in Silesia.

    Most of these men lived in the 19th, 18th, early 20th, but some in the 17th, 15th, one even died in the 12th century.

    In total I have found 100 Y-DNA samples from descendants of pre-war inhabitants of Silesia. Here we go:

    Sample/kit # - place of origin of most distant ancestor, ancestor's SURNAME (last SNP tested):

    (I list modern names of settlements, if you copy & paste a name in Google, German version will show up too):

    I1-M253 haplogroup - 13 samples from Silesia:

    kit #372952 - Silesia, RAUTENBERG (M253+)
    kit #E14316 - Żagań, VON NAUMANN (Z58+)
    kit #N11115 - Stary Kisielin/Zielona Góra, LIEHR (Z58+)
    kit #468007 - Boronów, BULLA (S2077/S2078+)
    kit #91645 - Dąbrówka Dolna, WELNA (Z63+)
    kit #119162 - Kobyla Góra, MAGNUSKI (L1237+)
    kit #188658 - Pietrzykowice, BIALEK (S2078+)
    kit #228663 - Karvina, KOPEL (Z140+)
    kit #268090 - Rokliny, FRANKE (M253+)
    kit #115240 - Stobrawa, DEUTSCHER (Z2336/L22+)
    kit #N37278 - Wrocław, DEMSKE (M253+)
    kit #167103 - Sośnicowice/Tarnowskie Góry, BOTUR (Z63+)
    kit #155178 - Kłodzko, ROSENBERGER (Z140+)

    J2-M172 haplogroup - 5 samples from Silesia:

    kit #B27771 - Suszec, JURECZKO (Z631+)
    kit #278599 - Wrocław, GABEL (M92+)
    kit #N27660 - Zabrze, NN (M172+)
    kit #N45394 - Silesia, GILL (FGC21360+)
    kit #66138 - Wrocław, ZWIEFKA (L283+)

    E1b1b haplogroup - 4 samples from Silesia:

    kit #E18170 - Sternalice, STEINERT (PF1975+)
    kit #83418 - Racibórz, FIEGLER (V13+)
    kit #233387 - Krasne Pole (Ostrava), HONHEISER (V13+)
    kit #155147 - Lubin, SEIFLEIN (V13+)

    G2a haplogroup - 3 samples:

    kit #285720 - Gliwice, BEIDEL (Y8903+)
    kit #231079 - Uszyce, KOWALSKI (P15+)
    kit #265686 - Lutomia Górna, POHL (L13/L78+)

    N1c haplogroup - 3 samples:

    kit #N49541 - Rydułtowy, MEISEL (L1025+)
    kit #N107445 - Złotoryja, NOWAK (Y4706+)
    kit #E11197 - Górki, BLACH (L1025+)

    G2b haplogroup - 2 samples:

    kit #123331 - Bolesławiec, BRODA, (M377+)
    kit #72341 - Podkamień, ADER (M377+)

    J1 haplogroup - 2 samples:

    kit #77418 - Praszka, GUTFRAJND (Z18271+)
    kit #N13360 - Pszczyna, WARZECHA (P58+)

    I2a haplogroup - only 1 sample:

    kit #300972 - Laskówka, SCHINDLER (CTS5966+)

    T haplogroup - 1 sample:

    kit #161332 - Zielona Góra, SCHÜTZ (P322+)

    Q haplogroup - 1 sample:

    kit #89372 - Mikołów, DE KRUPPA (L275+)

    R1b-M269 haplogroup - only 11 samples from Silesia:

    kit #227479 - Cieszyn, FIEDLER (M269+)
    kit #E1877 - Lower Silesia, QUADE (M269+)
    kit #E2541 - Ludwigsthal, SCHIRM (U106, S10185+)
    kit #132073 - Kotulin Mały, KORUS (M269+)
    kit #B4978 - Ostrava, SELIGA (U152, DF103+)
    kit #422423 - Oława, KARPEL (U152, Z49+)
    kit #N89895 - Żagań, SCHULZ (U106+)
    kit #N114363 - Nowa Sól, SCHMIDT (P312, DF99+)
    kit #E4911, E14624 - Kolsko, LEFEBER (P312, L21+)
    kit #N11619 - Okunin, SCHILLING (M269+)
    kit #176123 - Gliwice, KONIECZNY (Z2103, BY593+)

    ===========================
    ===========================

    R1a haplogroup - 54 samples from Silesia:

    kit #464408 - Osina Mała, KUBE (M512+)
    kit #40132 - Zielona Góra, WEDERICH (M417+)

    Branch R1a-L664:

    kit #277963 - Siemianowice Śląskie, KORFANTY (L644+)

    Branch R1a-Z280:

    kit #156577 - Stronie Śląskie, SZCZEPANEK (M417+, Z280?)

    Z92:

    kit #192545 - Głubczyce, SALZMANN (Z280>Z92+)

    CTS1211:

    kit #164946 - Lubliniec, SCHEMBOR (Z280>CTS1211?)
    kit #249444 - Błotnica Strzelecka, MAXELON (Z280>CTS1211?)

    YP343:

    kit #N38418 - Krzyżowa, BULAWA (Z280>CTS1211>YP343*)

    YP380:

    kit #N116699 - Ochaby, STANIEK (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>YP371>YP372>YP380*)
    kit #295227 - Warszowice, LASSEK (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>YP371>YP372>YP380?)

    P278.2:

    kit #E5412 - Opole, KLEEMANN (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>P278.2+)
    kit #N35951 - Ostrava, NN (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>P278.2+)
    kit #163780 - Niewiesze, KOCUR (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>P278.2+)

    CTS3402>YP237:

    kit #465642 - Bładnice Górne, GAZDA (Z280, CTS3402>YP237+)
    kit #161130 - Wrocław, PFEILER (Z280, CTS3402>YP237>YP235?)
    kit #302244 - Frydek-Mistek, NOWAK (Z280, CTS3402>YP237>YP951, YP1018+)

    CTS3402>Y33:

    kit #210950 - Legnica, HAMANN (Z280, CTS3402>Y33, YP4335*)
    kit #N17626 - Katowice, SOBALLA (Z280, CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2898>Y2902+)

    S18681:

    kit #E8695 - Wrocław, MASUR (Z280, CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681)
    kit #N156262 - Wrocław, WIANCKO (Z280, CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681, YP314+)
    kit #329518 - Brody (Pförten), KAKOSCHKE (Z280, CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681, YP314>YP1409+)

    Branch R1a-M458:

    Clade L260:

    kit #188725 - Mysłowice, PATALONG (M458, L260?)
    kit #349840 - Katowice, ROSTEK (M458, L260?)
    kit #172283 - Wałbrzych, DINTER (M458, L260?)
    kit #124617 - Oleśnica, LASSOTA (M458, L260?)
    kit #N33335 - Budziska, GRZESIK (M458, L260?)
    kit #N18946 - Żywiec, TOMASZEK (M458, L260?)
    kit #N13715 - Komprachcice, SAKRY (M458, L260+)
    kit #363910 - Międzyrzecze, ROLKA (M458, L260+)
    kit #E1842 - Stare Karmonki, FREYER (M458, L260+)
    kit #N3865 - Laskowice, PACH (M458, L260+)
    kit #114248 - Srebrna Góra, KRUSZKA (M458, L260+)
    kit #E4579 - Czerwona Woda, NN (M458, L260+)
    kit #173783 - Zielona Góra, VOGT (M458, L260+)

    YP1337:

    kit #288504 - Rostkowice, STRZODA (M458, L260>YP1337+)

    YP254:

    kit #N111740 - Kałki, SCHULZE (M458, L260, YP256>YP254?)
    kit #53667 - Wilamowice, SCHNEIDER (M458, L260, YP254+)
    kit #376660 - Brzęczkowice, CHECHELSKI (M458, L260, YP254>YP414+)
    kit #154913 - Niemodlin, HANNAK (M458, L260, YP254>YP414>YP610+)

    Y2905:

    kit #439329 - Mikołów, SZKOWRON (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905+)
    kit #338484 - Świniary, MIRKE (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905+)
    kit #260299 - Głubczyce, BERNATEK (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905>YP1364+)
    kit #329542 - Wrocław, WARKUS (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905>YP1364+)
    kit #N77026 - Panki, KONARSKI (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905>YP1364>YP3927+)

    Clade L1029:

    kit #178329 - Chorzów, BENTKOWSKI (M458, CTS11962?, L1029?)
    kit #102574 - Wałbrzych, SCHOBER (M458, CTS11962?, L1029?)
    kit #373829 - Głubczyce, LEX (M458, CTS11962>L1029+)
    kit #E11879 - Raszowa, GONDRO (M458, CTS11962>L1029+)
    kit #271280 - Milicz, SCHWABE (M458, CTS11962>L1029+)
    kit #199575 - Wrocław, Piotr WŁOSTOWIC (M458, CTS11962>L1029>YP593+)
    kit #97621 - Wrocław, JUNG (M458, CTS11962>L1029>YP263>Y2921+)

    Branch R1a-Z93:

    kit #E7096 - Rościsławice, BAUM (Z93, Z94-)
    kit #232033 - Krapkowice, SCHARON (Z93, Z2124>Z2123, Y934*)
    kit #N103033 - Silesia, CHRISTMANN (Z93, Z2124>Z2122, CTS6+)

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    Summary of Silesian (pre-1939) Y-DNA haplogroups:

    Sample size = 100

    R1a ---- 54
    I1 ------ 13
    R1b ---- 11
    (surprisingly low)
    J2 ------ 5
    E1b ---- 4
    G2a ---- 3
    N1c ---- 3
    J1 ------ 2
    G2b ---- 2
    I2a ----- 1
    (surprisingly low)
    T ------- 1
    Q ------- 1

    Total - 100


    =================

    These men lived in past centuries and are listed as "most distant ancestors" of FTDNA testeees.

    One person in this sample of 100 men - Piotr Włostowic - even lived in the 11th & 12th centuries:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piotr_W%C5%82ostowic

    Most of them, however, were born during the 19th and the early 20th centuries (all before WW2).

    Of course Y-DNA samples were collected from modern paternal descendants of these 100 men.

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    And R1a subclades:

    Z283 - 48/54
    --Z280 - 18/48
    ----Z92 - 1/18
    ----CTS1211* - 8/18
    ------CTS3402 - 8/18
    --M458 - 30/48
    ----L260 - 23/30
    ----CTS11962** - 7/30
    Z93 - 3/54
    L664 - 1/54
    M417+ - 1/54
    M512+ - 1/54

    *Without CTS3402
    **Mostly L1029+
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-22-2016 at 09:59 AM.

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    Subclades of R1a-Z283 in Silesia and in the "Polish Project" (PL-LT Commonwealth Project):

    1) "Polish Project" FTDNA:

    R1a-Z283+ in total - 1167, including:

    --Z280 - 595/1167
    ----Z92 - 119/595
    ----CTS1211* - 102/595
    ------CTS3402 - 363/595
    --M458 - 556/1167
    ----L260 - 300/556
    ----CTS11962** - 247/556

    2) Silesian sample FTDNA:

    R1a-Z283+ in total - 48, including:

    --Z280 - 18/48
    ----Z92 - 1/18
    ----CTS1211* - 8/18
    ------CTS3402 - 8/18
    --M458 - 30/48
    ----L260 - 23/30
    ----CTS11962** - 7/30

    *Without CTS3402
    **Mostly L1029+

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    It seems that this map validates that the sample of 100 posted above is representative:

    The map is from Robert Gabel's website: http://www.robertgabel.de/

    It also can be found here: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups.../about/results



    Though my Silesian sample of 100 includes men from both German and Polish Projects.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-23-2016 at 04:00 PM. Reason: one link added

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  11. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    One person in this sample of 100 men - Piotr Włostowic - even lived in the 11th & 12th centuries:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piotr_W%C5%82ostowic
    Tomb of Piotr Wlostowic (destroyed by Lutherans in 1529):


    Annales seu cronicae incliti Regni Poloniae about Piotr Wlostowic' funeral:
    Pogrzeb miał wspaniały z udziałem wielkiej liczby Polaków, którzy uczciwszy go na uroczystościach żałobnych, okazali, jak bardzo kochali go za życia. Do dnia dzisiejszego imię komesa Piotra ze Skrzynna cieszy się u Polaków rozgłosem i sławą. Jego żona Maria, która zmarła później, została pochowana w tym samym grobowcu co Piotr, by zająć miejsce obok prochów małżonka.

    Dwuwiersz wypisany na grobowcu świadczy, że pogrzebano tam oboje. Oto on:
    „Tu Piotra z wierną żoną Marią w grób złożono Z woli ojca Wilhelma wspaniały marmur położono".

    Do tej pory istnieje w Polsce wiele kościołów murowanych, które — jak podają — zostały przez niego wzniesione.
    Source

    https://suw.biblos.pk.edu.pl/resourc...iumDawnego.pdf

    http://wratislavia.archeo.uni.wroc.pl/15-tom/2-1.pdf
    Last edited by Waldemar; 05-23-2016 at 02:23 PM.

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  13. #7
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    As for this sample:

    KUBE (born 1832), M512+, Osina Mała (German: Wenig Nossen), #464408

    Quote Originally Posted by Artek
    Kube is most likely Y2902. I've found even more samples but to some of them I have no access at all.
    By the way - FTDNA Silesian Project will be established in a few weeks:

    Quote Originally Posted by Artek
    I will be possibly included as an admin to the Silesian DNA project (which is to be opened in the next few weeks). We will gather as many "safe" samples as we can and many autochtonous Silesians are to be tested thanks to the Silius Radicum association.
    I did some searching, and it is a very interesting association indeed:

    http://siliusradicum.pl/category/genealogia-genetyczna/

    http://siliusradicum.pl/strony-poswiecone-dna/

    http://siliusradicum.pl/dna-naszych-przodkow/

    https://www.facebook.com/siliusradicum/

    All in Polish, but there is: http://free-website-translation.com/?en
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-23-2016 at 05:34 PM.

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    Y-DNA (P)
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    Prior to WWII, the region,







    http://www.geocurrents.info/historic...he-iron-people

    4century ad.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/

    R-Y5587[ TMRCA 4300 ybp]>R-V2986[formed 4300 ybp, TMRCA 1550] >R-Y14306Y14306[formed 1550 ybp, TMRCA 1300 ybp]

    460+/-A.D.
    Last edited by Silesian; 05-23-2016 at 07:13 PM.

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  16. #9
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    By the way:

    Here is where Rebala's "Paternal landscape" 2012 study German samples were from:

    7 - Mecklenburg (only pre-WW2 inhabitants)
    8 - western Bavaria (as above)
    5 - Slavic Sorbs (as above)

    7+8 = German samples (Krzysztof Rebala's study) / Y-DNA from Robert Gabel's map:



    So Rebala found "significant differentiation" because he sampled only these regions.

    Link to Rebala's study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3598329/

    Link to Gabel's map: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups.../about/results

    Website: http://www.robertgabel.de/
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-24-2016 at 07:08 AM.

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  18. #10
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    A map with 96 of these samples (4 have no exact location given so I couldn't place them):

    https://s31.postimg.org/m55t8jgor/Map_Silesia.png



    It seems that R1b was most frequent in north-western part of Silesia, around Grünberg:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zielona_Góra

    ====
    Edit:

    But what if we divide the region into its two historical parts?:



    Historical border between Upper and Lower Silesia:

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-y0xiVjGh3m...ślask.jpg

    ^ If we apply that line of divide, we can see lower % of R1a in Lower Silesia (as expected):

    Upper Silesia - 48 samples of which 30 R1a = 62,5%
    Lower Silesia - 48 samples of which 23 R1a = 47,9%

    However:

    Grünberg region - 11 samples of which 4 R1a = 36,4%
    Rest of Lower Silesia - 37 samples of which 19 R1a = 51,4%
    Last edited by Tomenable; 06-21-2016 at 12:46 AM.

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