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Thread: R1b-M269 / L23 and the diffusion of early metallurgy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    One of Armenian Bronze Age R1b-s was P297*.
    Indeed, and that doesn't change a thing quite frankly.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

  2. #42
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    In Bell Beaker we have only L11+, or even just P312+. In CWC we have a whole diverse bunch of R1a subclades.

    We have M198*, L664, M417*, M417+, Z283+ (including Z284). Possibly some R1b M269(xL51) too.

    This shows that CWC was a "wholesale" migration wave from the Steppe, with all lineages from very basal to more diverged moving at once. And all those guys had 75%+ Yamnaya/Steppe autosomal DNA (or Yamnaya-cousin autosomal DNA if you prefer).

    German Beaker was not such a thing, as it had a shortage of Y-DNA diversity (only L11+) and less of Steppe admixture.

    You need to explain why there was no L23(xL51) in Bell Beaker, and why there is none in modern Western Europe.

    Populations descended from CWC (such as Slavs) actually have ca. 5% of R1b-L23(xL51). See: Myres 2010.

    Which confirms that Corded Ware had some L23(xL51) from Yamna or Yamna-cousin population.

    By contrast, there is absolute lack of Yamna-related L23(xL51) in BB and modern West Europe.

    Eastern Europeans have 10x more of Yamna-related R1b (ca. 5.0%) than Germans (ca. 0.5%).
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-03-2016 at 09:34 PM.

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  4. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    Those results are all I2a + G2a and lack steppe autosomal DNA. There is no doubt that the shift from EEF to modern Western Europeans had to start off as pretty heavy in EHG to get to today's numbers.
    This is not a sensible understanding of genetic group dynamics. When a new population mixes into a pre-existing gene pool, the percentage of the invader's genes within the population must be ~0 at t=0, by definition. The growth of admixture must be something like a linear slope, from a percentage of 0 at t=0 to a percentage X at time T. A population can't "start off as pretty heavy" anything. Individuals interbreed one by one. Entire cultural groups do not instantaneously interbreed. Today's numbers are the result of a continuous change in admixture from zero to X, and do not require a large percentage at t=0.

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  6. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I agree that odds are that J2 also had something to do with it, but alongside R1b-M269.
    Their distributions are quite distinct and unrelated.
    Last edited by ADW_1981; 05-03-2016 at 10:03 PM.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster 1100 BC
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    Their distributions are quite distinct and unrelated.
    There is a lot of overlap even in Europe:




    And even more so outside of Europe:


    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-03-2016 at 10:26 PM.

  8. #46
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    To be honest it is more likely for me that R1b People Indo-Europeanized R1a People than the other way around. But i think the original PIE community was a mix of R1a and R1b but after bottlenecks/founder effects some late PIE tribes became R1b or R1a dominated.
    Last edited by Coldmountains; 05-03-2016 at 10:55 PM.

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    Italy and Portugal both have a lot of P312 and J2. However, anywhere north of there, be it Britain, Germany, or France, J2 is abysmally low. They couldn't have spread together.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster 1100 BC
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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  12. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    Italy and Portugal both have a lot of P312 and J2. However, anywhere north of there, be it Britain, Germany, or France, J2 is abysmally low. They couldn't have spread together.
    Yeah, where did all the Lebanese L23 go? What about the Basque J2a? And let's not even talk about the Caucasus. Anyway, I think this is a perfect example of how using contemporary data to uncover the past fails in almost every single respect (as if all the surprises we've stumbled onto these last few years hadn't already made this painfully clear)
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    I have no horse in the R1b race, so my interest is out of "pure" interest & enthusiasm ( )

    One the one hand, we should not reduce the advent of Copper technology in western Europe to linear diffusionist radiation from the Near East, which requires it to have revolutionized life in central - western Europe in ways it appears not to have done (see Development of Metallurgy in Eurasia" by Piggot, Roberts & Thornton). Moreover, a Marxist framework is (? subconsciously) invoked : "master' R1b metalsmiths, "slave/ commoners" R1a, who then rebelled and overthrew their masters on the steppe after c. 2200 BC.

    However, a model attempting to link BB with Yamnaya itself has problems, largely because the entire study of BB is unresolved (Dating issues), but also the existence of only very general similarities between Yamnaya & BB, at best/ those being a shift toward pastoralism, mobility and individualism which can be seen as widespread changes resulting from the "secondary products revolution"). Rather, the prevailing trend sees that the 'full Beaker package' to have developed somewhere in eastern France, western Germany- generally the west Alpine area - through a fusion of Iberian Beakers, some dagger types native to Nth Italy & Alpine Europe, and new 'eastern ideologies' of solitary burials, etc.

    What is clear is that BB in east-central European countries like Bohemia, Hungary, Croatia, Poland is definitely seen to be intrusive from the west. So some kind of "reflux" is required, at least.

    So the question is : how do we get P312 in Germany by 2600 BC (? as early as 2800 BC), so that it can reflux back, at least in part, back east ? Michal has several times offered an explanation, so I won't repeat his ideas in detail (but basically P312 was already present in Europe before the BB phase)

    Exploring the alternative, Danube route, leaves us with this scenario:


    image.jpg

    image.jpg

    The "Copper Age" Baden sample dates from c. 2800 BC. It shows no steppe admixture.
    Collectively, from EBA Hungary we have several Y samples: 4 or so of which are I2a2, there is a J2, and the R1b-something from Vucedol (also dating to this period; but not fully sequenced, so we don't know what it really 'looked like").

    If we take the Baden sample (from the Tisza valley of Hungary) as representative of Danube Europe (a problematic stance, being a mere 1 sample; but it is not too much of a stretch to envisage Hungary Baden being very similar to the Baden offshoots in Germany and Bohemia), it looks like it was still genetically Middle European Neolithic, and it had not yet admixed with its Yamanaya neighbours literally a stone's throw away in Hungary. The earliest evidence of EHG admixture in the Carpathian basin comes after 2000 BC, with the MBA. This presents us with a problem of getting an EHG -admixed population up the Danube to Germany by 2600 BC, albeit not an unsurmoutable one

    [the culture map of central Europe is by Dr Tunde Horvath, Hungarian archaeologist]
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 05-04-2016 at 03:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    Italy and Portugal both have a lot of P312 and J2. However, anywhere north of there, be it Britain, Germany, or France, J2 is abysmally low. They couldn't have spread together.
    Together or not, both "tribes" could be spreading metallurgy.

    Unless you want to claim that since there is not much of J2 in France, it means that France never adopted metallurgy and is still stuck in the Stone Age to this day?

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