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Thread: The genetic history of Ice Age Europe

  1. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by Padre Organtino View Post
    What do you mean by "one of the most EEF"?
    I mean that, EEF ancestry in western georgians and north east of turkey relatively higher then other pops in Caucaus. Only may be Assyrians or Iraqi jews have more EEF then southern caucaus pops. And EEF samples in neolethic Anatolia have WHG ancestry as well. Thats why WHG ancestry correlates with EEF ancestry. Thus it would not suprise for me if Villabruna cluster be closer to western georgian samples in all samples which is not European.
    Last edited by Anabasis; 05-04-2016 at 06:36 PM.

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  3. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    but if there is a common ancestor in 4400BC between Z2103 that is later found in Yamnaya and L51 then we would need to find a common thread that fed both into Yamnaya and into wherever L51 was no earlier than 4400BC. Note also that by 4400BC some popular models suggest archaic PIE had already emerged. 4400BC also long post-dates the spread of farming.

    As we have no idea where or what culture L51 was in 4400BC-2800BC then we have to work from what we know about Z2103. We know it was in Yamnaya and therefore must have been in one of a (apparently the dominant) element that went into Yamnaya. The genesis of Yamanya would appear to be Repin with Caucasus input coming up the Don and Volga. IF Z2103/its L23 ancestor wasnt in Repin then it was likely in the Caucasus. IMO if you wish to see L51 or its immediate L23 branch ancestor as pushing west from somewhere other than the steppe then the Caucasus post-4400BC. How much post-4400BC is another question because branching of a y tree does not necessarily synchonise with geographical separation. I think its fair to say that noone has ever suggested the Caucasus area as a major centre of post 4400BC expansion until the Maykop era copper age and later which is at least several centuries (exact dating still seems disputed) after that 4400BC date. So that pushes us likely to the post-4000BC era EVEN if one takes the stance that the L23 element in Yamnaya is not native steppe and owes more to Maykop etc. At the very least this would appear to indicate that movement west of L51 is very unlikely to have preceded the spread of copper west. Copper only appears in Italy around 3500BC and southern France and Iberia several centuries later.
    Your whole hypothesis is based on the premised that R1b-L51 and R1b-Z2103 share a common ancestor circa 4400 BC; if this date is pushed back then the scenario I explained back in 2012 can work; otherwise if we assume that the TMRCA based on modern day mutation rates and calibrations from a few ancient genomes are spot on; then you have a point. My whole premise derives from a nonrigid assumption when it comes to TMRCA for R1b-L23. I assumed that it was born in Europe and that it splitting point happened during the arrival of farming in the region. With some going East(R1b-L23-pre-Z2103+other R1b combos) and others West (R1b-L23-preL51). Remember that EHG do have substantial amounts of WHG in them; if the WHG had R1b as one of their carrying haplogroups then it makes sense. This is why if we take the result of el Portalon as being R1b-M269 as being valid; then my prediction is that the more we sample Western Europe the more we are going to start seeing the singleton R1b lineages pop out amongst a sea of G2a and I2.

    Ultimately the massive expansion of the R1b-L11 sublineages is due to the Bell Beaker culture; but I believe they were IndoEuropeanized by their neighbors in Central Europe; refluxing back into Southern Europe and Western Europe with the Steppe component in them. The fact that we also see an asymmetry when it comes to the Steppe component with areas where the R1b-L21 lineages are predominant having greater amount of the Steppe component that areas where R1b-DF27 is the majority lineage present.

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  5. #363
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    As for those who claim that Beaker=EEF(mt-DNA H)+Vucedol(R1b); my question is: While keeping in mind that the sample size is low; how can mixing Vucedol whose only quasi-representatives being the Bronze Age Hungarians have far less Steppe Ancestry than the Beaker samples produce the central European Beakers. So if we take the Bronze Hungarians to represent the Vucedol people; then we either happened to sample some folks with low Steppe component or Vucedol cannot be the half Beaker side; specially when Corded Ware has a much higher Steppe ratio; thus mixing with Corded Ware would produced greater number of Steppe Ancestry in Central European Beaker people.

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  7. #364
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    thought I would join in posting some trees

    http://www.thewildlifephotographer.c...l/_46A2831.jpg

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  9. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    It's a different analysis but check today's blog at: http://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/

    By the way, at 13,000 ybp in Georgia there is no EEF ancestry. In modern day, both EEF and "teal", a relative of CHG, are ubiquitous in the Middle East. Probably wasn't the case 13,000 ybp. There was regional differentiation.
    Well I thought that you are talking about modern Western Georgians. The PCA didnt make any sense on me. I think that original paper is much more true.

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  11. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeanL View Post
    Therefore low coverage was the main reason for exclusion for all main analyses; but it still doesn't invalidate the haplogroup assignment; yet by not including it in the main test; it gives the illusion that once again mt-DNA Hg H was absent from pre-Neolithic Europeans.
    It is not an illusion. It is a fact that there are not yet any mtDNA H pre-Neolithic European samples when you exclude test results that are affected by contamination (edit: and when you exclude H samples in Mesolithic cultures that co-existed with Neolithic cultures). Perhaps they might be found in the future, but we don't have any yet.

    Also, the Vestonice14 sample is dated at about 31,000 years ago, Behar estimates that H7a1 has an age of about 6500 years, and that H7 has an age of about 9000 years. Even with the possibility of uncertainty in the age estimates on the order of 30%, it is not plausible that H7 was present anywhere 30,000 years ago.
    Last edited by GailT; 05-04-2016 at 06:57 PM.

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  13. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    thought I would join in posting some trees

    http://www.thewildlifephotographer.c...l/_46A2831.jpg
    Are they the native Bluebells or Spanish ones ? : )

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  15. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeanL View Post
    The main issue about putting the Villabruna lineage as coming from the East/Southeast only after 14000 ybp is that the blue lineage appears to also be somehow related to both Magdalenians and even Gravettian Europeans. El Miron can be modeled as ~60% Aurignacian the other 40% being these Pseudo-WHG lineage. On the other hand the other Magdalenians are even higher Aurignacian with 80% and 20% Pseudo-WHG. Even the Vestonice Gravettians who appear to be a dead-end lineage can be modeled as 90% Konstenti and 10% Pseudo-WHG. So it would seem as if there was a refuge somewhere in Southern Europe or perhaps NW Anatolia that the Pseudo-WHG is coming from. However there is yet the third lineage of Aurignacians to which Konstenti doesn't belong to but seems to have contributed to both Magdalenians in greater proportions and some WHG in far smaller proportions.
    From the mtDNA side, in the previous Ice Age Europe paper all the Magdalenians were closely related U8a, and were largely replaced during the Late Glacial by U5b. The earliest U5b sample was from Paglicci71, from Italy in the Epigravettian. Replacement from the southeast? Now we have the Red Lady of El Miron, and she has U5b too, and is contemporary with Paglicci71. What's more, Grotta Paglicci is unusual in Italy for its Southwest European style cave art, which has been interpreted as direct evidence of migration from the west. So now the most plausible source of U5b is the southwest again.

    The Franco-Cantabrian refuge had the highest population density by far, and could have retained considerable genetic diversity. But we have only two samples: the Magdalenian El Miron from Cantabria, and Gravettian LaRochette, mt hg M, which unfortunately was not included in this study due to poor coverage. El Miron had too much Aurignacian to be the main source of WHG, but is this true of all of Southwest Europe? The autosomal ancestry graphs from this paper are quite varied, so it is not clear what the true relationships between populations were, but in the above graph we can see that the majority ancestry of Loschbour is actually modelled as more closely related to the non-Aurignacian ancestry of El Miron than to Villabruna.

    The question of the origin and role of Solutrean remains. Local? Central European? North African even?

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  17. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by GailT View Post
    It is not an illusion. It is a fact that are not yet any mtDNA H pre-Neolithic Europeans samples when you exclude test results that are affected by contamination. Perhaps they might be found in the future, but we don't have any yet.

    Also, the Vestonice14 sample is dated at about 31,000 years ago, Behar estimates that H7a1 has an age of about 6500 years, and that H7 has an age of about 9000 years. Even with the possibility of uncertainty in the age estimates on the order of 30%, it is not plausible that H7 was present anywhere 30,000 years ago.
    Estimate

    Quote Originally Posted by Dictionary.com
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    roughly calculate or judge the value, number, quantity, or extent of.
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    There are plenty of mt-DNA H in pre-Neolithic Europeans(Vestonice42; La Pasiega; Karelia; La Chora). Now the most common explanation as to Behar's calculation is that is freaking wrong; not that mt-DNA H7 cannot be 31000 years old. You can argue that them using restricted segments that show damage might be one reason for it; but not using Behar as your counterargument. So when you people stop taking inherently random age estimations; which are modeled using stochastic models; which have a sh!t ton of uncertainties in them as the gold standard instead of relying on observable data; then things will start making sense to you.

    Every time you bring up an age estimate based on modern day genomes to argue against the observation of a haplogroup in Ancient DNA I cannot help but be extremely amused!
    Last edited by jeanL; 05-04-2016 at 07:03 PM.

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  19. #370
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    Behar's age estimates are generally consistent with all of the ancient mtDNA samples published during the last 5 years. It is a real stretch to claim they are wrong by much more than 30%. You also have the problem of explaining the very low number of mutations in present day people, for example, how do you explain the large number of H7 people who have had no mutations 31,000 years?

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