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Thread: The genetic history of Ice Age Europe

  1. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anabasis View Post
    Who said that they are so closely with western Georgians?

    Please read the quoted passage there. They says that they found connection with iraqi jews. On the otherhand western georgians have one of the most EEf ancestry in the region.
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post154376
    What do you mean by "one of the most EEF"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lank View Post
    If Villabruna lacks ANE then that is certainly interesting, but not exactly revolutionary. Let's not forget that the Neolithic farmer with R1b-V88 also had no ANE. The ANE Mal'ta boy was R*, and later EHG and Bronze Age pastoralists had both of these components. So a straightforward connection of R1b with either ANE or WHG is not possible to make at this point.

    This is just showing what we already knew, which is that Y chromosomes trace a single line of ancestry and can easily become detached from one's autosomal ancestry (R1b Central Africans are another example of this). It still doesn't change the fact that modern West European R1b shares a close (post-Neolithic) ancestor with the Yamnaya R1b. As well as aDNA from the more easterly parts of Europe being dominated by R1a/R1b/Q lineages, all derived from P, a possible indication of the ANE ancestry that is also found in Mal'ta boy (R) and Native Americans (Q) being most significant in the easterly parts of Europe in prehistoric times, as we've seen in the aDNA record.
    We could interpret the Italian R1b as a lineage that fled south-west from south-central Siberian in LGM c. 23000BC to live among Gravettian Hunters in the south Caucasus and adjacent for many millenia and somehow spread to Italy before the Younger Dryas.

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  5. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anabasis View Post
    Who said that they are so closely with western Georgians?

    Please read the quoted passage there. They says that they found connection with iraqi jews. On the otherhand western georgians have one of the most EEf ancestry in the region.
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post154376
    It's a different analysis but check today's blog at: http://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/

    By the way, at 13,000 ybp in Georgia there is no EEF ancestry. In modern day, both EEF and "teal", a relative of CHG, are ubiquitous in the Middle East. Probably wasn't the case 13,000 ybp. There was regional differentiation.
    Last edited by ADW_1981; 05-04-2016 at 05:21 PM.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster 1100 BC
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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  7. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lank View Post
    The Villabruna R1b sample belonged to the Epigravettian culture. Here's a map from Wikipedia on the European LGM refuges 20 kya, Epigravettian in purple:

     
    Gravettian is the most likely culture to have come into peripheral contact with R Siberians IMO. It was present in easternmost Europe and on the other side of the Caucasus and adjacent. So it covered a significant chunk of the likely contact points between Siberians/north-central Asians and Europeans/SW Asians in a period where radiocarbon dating does show a near-evacuation of south-central Siberia after 24000BC (Malta boy was an outlier - the youngest date at 22000BC).

    How I read it is, despite no obvious archaeological signal, a small amount of Siberians did indeed head south-west following the northern mountain fringe of inner Asia towards the south Caspian and south Black Sea areas. Being seas (albeit shrunken in the LGM), the shores and fishing would permit south-north and vice versa mobility that would not have been possible by land (desert in east Caspian etc).

    If I am understanding the comments of other correctly, it would appear that our Italian R1b chap had a long cojourn in south Caucasus-type Gravettian populations before living in (also Gravettian) Italy. It makes me wonder if the Italian Gravettian or at least the post-LGM bit of it has any similarities closer to that of the Caucasus than that of eastern Europe? I have no idea but there may be archaeological hints of this in the literature if we dig looking for it. Italian archaeology is not well served for internet access of sources in English though.

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    The main issue about putting the Villabruna lineage as coming from the East/Southeast only after 14000 ybp is that the blue lineage appears to also be somehow related to both Magdalenians and even Gravettian Europeans. El Miron can be modeled as ~60% Aurignacian the other 40% being these Pseudo-WHG lineage. On the other hand the other Magdalenians are even higher Aurignacian with 80% and 20% Pseudo-WHG. Even the Vestonice Gravettians who appear to be a dead-end lineage can be modeled as 90% Konstenti and 10% Pseudo-WHG. So it would seem as if there was a refuge somewhere in Southern Europe or perhaps NW Anatolia that the Pseudo-WHG is coming from. However there is yet the third lineage of Aurignacians to which Konstenti doesn't belong to but seems to have contributed to both Magdalenians in greater proportions and some WHG in far smaller proportions.

    Last edited by jeanL; 05-04-2016 at 05:47 PM.

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  11. #356
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    It's certainly not my area of expertise, but there is not a lot of content (on the internet at least) on what was going on in southern Europe after the ice receded. The subsequent cultures, I guess from archaeological digs seems to be heavily biased to regions in France, Germany, northern Europe in general.

    The single R1b seems inconsistent in the hunter-gatherer world of C1, I, and extinct branches found in northern Europe. (Even when examining the central European farming aDNA)
    Last edited by ADW_1981; 05-04-2016 at 06:00 PM.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster 1100 BC
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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  13. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Indeed J could've spread with metallurgy, in fact I suspect that's how J2a became so prominent in West Asia for the time being. But what I find more troubling is that given the sheer diversity we observe in Western Europe during the Paleolithic, the Middle East is bound to blow our minds away with several surprises of the kind just on a much bigger scale this time. So it's possible we're not even seeing the tip of the iceberg with EF and CHG.




    RISE546, I0439 and I0443 were all R1b and Z2103-, in fact the latter (I0443) was just L23* as far as we can tell.




    As far as an association between R1b and PIE goes, the evidence is pretty conclusive as of yet. All we need now is to find L51 and PF7562 on the Pontic-Caspian steppe/in a PIE context and all the idiosyncratic theories surrounding R1b will have to take a break... The assumption that R1b was Indo-Europeanised is simply unreasonable right now. I mean, it's not as if L51 and Z2103 parted ways 13,000 years ago, they're both branches of L23 (TMRCA ~6,400 yBP) after all so the only reasonable assumption right now is that L51 wasn't far away on the steppe, unless equally conclusive proof of the contrary comes up (who knows, anything is possible, it isn't exactly likely but surprises have become a theme of their own in this field so never say never).

    Similarly, if we pay attention to specific subclades what we see is a general correlation with the spread of IE, R1b's phylogeny even fits with IE phylogeny to some extent, of course nothing is perfect and there is no 1:1 correlation but still, it's pretty damn obvious.




    Like I said earlier, it's particularly unwise to draw conclusions from this sample at a time when we have no decent coverage of what was going on in Eastern Europe and on the Pontic-Caspian steppe (as well as in the Balkans and in Anatolia) during the Upper Paleolithic. That's the main flaw in this study, namely that it focuses almost entirely on Western-Central Europe.
    Very much agree with that. The key fact is that L51 and Z2103 share an ancestor only 1400ys earlier perhaps around 4400BC. So the main yline in Yamanaya comes from a shared ancestor who lived around the time when both the first of several steppe waves headed into old Europe and the farming of the latter started to falter. I think the multiple waves from the steppes into Old Europe provide a rational scenario for the geographical separation of L51 and Z2103. We already know that Z2103 at least was partly 'stay home' during at least the first steppe waves west because we have ancient DNA evidence that shows some Z2103 remained on he steppes in 2900BC despite one or possible two earlier steppe waves west. Modern linguistic associations and distribution would tend to back the idea that L51 headed west before Z2103 had fully spilled out the steppes. I have said this before and will say it again - L51xL11 may be very very hard to find in ancient DNA because it seems to have been a minor lineage that only hit the big time with L11. Finding ancient DNA of a small L51xL11 lineage might be impossible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeanL View Post
    BTW the only special thing about the Steppe compared to Europe is that it is vastly dominated by R1b-Z2103 lineages and earlier by all kinds of R1b cousin lineages and R1a. But to claim that a place is the place of origin of a haplogroup based on frequency is down there with the R1b is from Basque hypothesis because it is found in 90% of them. When I see a progression like we clearly see with R1a in the European Steppe with R1b then I will gladly accept the evidence. Thus far we have:

    5500 BC Samara HG R1b-PreM73(Thus not ancestral to Western European R1b-M269)
    5000 BC Samara Eneolithic R1b-L278 (Again too young to be ancestral to Western European R1b-M269)
    3000 BC Yamnaya mostly R1b-Z2103 with a single instance of R1b-L23(xL51;Z2103)

    Where is R1b-M269; where is R1b-L23? Oh yeah! El Portalon dated to around Yamnaya likely R1b-M269; but he was contaminated. Now an Italian R1b1 that is old enough to represent the lineage that is ancestral to both R1b-M73 and R1b-M269 but he is just a loner. Too bad!
    I think the problem with much of this back and forth argumentation between opposite viewpoints is something that Ockham would have characterized as insufficient discernment between three related yet distinct types of proof: possible, probable, demonstrative. IMHO there is as yet very little demonstrative proof in genetics details (some certainly), a little bit more of the "probable" variety (which doesn't have to be accepted but may be held without ridicule). Most is still somewhere between "possible" and "probable". Patience and tolerance should be the order of the day. Meanwhile Can't wait for the promised aDNA avalanches to continue.

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    I looked up the samples list at Pinhasi's group website again: https://sites.google.com/site/pinhasierc/home/samples

    Right now the most interesting unpublished yet samples seems to be Early Neolithic from Tel Toim, Israel and Central Asian and Russian and Ukrainian Neolithic. Can't wait for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeanL View Post
    They lived side by side with Corded Ware who were 78%+ Steppe derived. Also R1b-Z2103 does appear in low frequencies all throughout Western Europe; I said that back in 2012 over 4 years ago even before they found R1b-Z2103* and it was just labeled as R1b-L23* which you and others used as some sort of proof that it was ancestral to Western European R1b-L51; in case you seem to have forgotten. I said that there was great differentiation STR wise between the Swiss R1b-L23* and the Caucasian ones; that R1b-L23 was probably broken into two factions at the arrival of the Neolithic; one taking refuge in Western Europe; the other one in the Steppe. One went on to become R1b-L51; the other R1b-Z2103. Later the R1b-L23* folks from the Caucasus arrived and IndoEuropeanized the Western half of Europe; perhaps being pushed from the East by their R1a distant cousins.

    More of my old hypothesis here from May 30; 2012:


    It is likely that when the farmers first arrived to the Balkans they pushed some R1b-L23 folks Northeastwards, and hence why Romania gets a high variance. As for R1b-L51, I don’t think it existed yet, it probably emerged later on while hiding in Western Europe, the same would apply to R1b-L11, in fact neither one of those two experienced a sudden expansion, so it is likely they originated in a very small population that wasn’t that successful. As for out-reproducing the farmers, did the hunter-gatherers in the Steppe’s learn the technology from the farmers, and then conquered all of Europe. What is wrong with some of those folks that have been sitting around in Central Europe for a while learning the technology from the incoming invaders. Are hunter gatherers in Western Europe somehow dumber than those in the Steppe, such that the former can learn anything from the farmers, yet the latter manage to conquer all of Europe.

    [...]

    Yes meanwhile, the R1b-L23(xL51) folks that were displaced towards the Steppes by the incoming farmers become the half story of the PIE group, the other half being R1a, and they go everywhere, but apparently just as they stop abruptly in Iran-Pakistan, they do so too around Central Europe, however the fact that some R1b-L23(xL51) is still found today in Western European shows that some of them did mingle around their distant cousins, and voila that explains why some R1b-P312 bearers are nonIndoEuropean speakers, whereas others aren't. If the R1b-L23(xL51) taught PIE to their cousins in Central Europe, then you get Celtic-Italic, you name it, expansions to explain the presence of IE languages in Western Europe. Whereas if R1b-L51 is born of PIE speaker R1b-L23 coming from the steppes in the Bronze age we would have a hard time explaining why groups with 80%+ of R1b-L51+ speak a nonIndoEuropean language.
    but if there is a common ancestor in 4400BC between Z2103 that is later found in Yamnaya and L51 then we would need to find a common thread that fed both into Yamnaya and into wherever L51 was no earlier than 4400BC. Note also that by 4400BC some popular models suggest archaic PIE had already emerged. 4400BC also long post-dates the spread of farming.

    As we have no idea where or what culture L51 was in 4400BC-2800BC then we have to work from what we know about Z2103. We know it was in Yamnaya and therefore must have been in one of a (apparently the dominant) element that went into Yamnaya. The genesis of Yamanya would appear to be Repin with Caucasus input coming up the Don and Volga. IF Z2103/its L23 ancestor wasnt in Repin then it was likely in the Caucasus. IMO if you wish to see L51 or its immediate L23 branch ancestor as pushing west from somewhere other than the steppe then the Caucasus post-4400BC. How much post-4400BC is another question because branching of a y tree does not necessarily synchonise with geographical separation. I think its fair to say that noone has ever suggested the Caucasus area as a major centre of post 4400BC expansion until the Maykop era copper age and later which is at least several centuries (exact dating still seems disputed) after that 4400BC date. So that pushes us likely to the post-4000BC era EVEN if one takes the stance that the L23 element in Yamnaya is not native steppe and owes more to Maykop etc. At the very least this would appear to indicate that movement west of L51 is very unlikely to have preceded the spread of copper west. Copper only appears in Italy around 3500BC and southern France and Iberia several centuries later.

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