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Thread: Elhaik and Ashkenazi ancestry: Scholarly infatuation or unhealthy obsession?

  1. #1
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    Elhaik and Ashkenazi ancestry: Scholarly infatuation or unhealthy obsession?

    This is meant to be a continuation of our conversation in the New DNA Papers thread.

    In light of the recent media coverage of Das et al. 2016's peer-reviewed paper on the origins of Ashkenazi Jewry (which I've already mentioned here), one finds himself compelled to ask a very specific question: Considering Behar et al. 2013's conclusive rebuttal of Eran Elhaik's (who is one of the authors of the aforementioned study) former paper on this issue, isn't the inquiry simply pointless? And despite all the media hype around Elhaik's theories, isn't he basically arguing against the data?

    By all means, discuss.
    מְכֹרֹתַיִךְ וּמֹלְדֹתַיִךְ מֵאֶרֶץ הַכְּנַעֲנִי אָבִיךְ הָאֱמֹרִי וְאִמֵּךְ חִתִּית
    יחזקאל פרק טז פסוק ג-

    אֲרֵי יִצְרָא לִבָּא דַּאֲנָשָׁא בִּישׁ מִזְּעוּרֵיהּ
    בראשית פרק ח פסוק כא-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Well i will not advocate the Elhaik bu actual i realy hard to understand why he is reacted so much. While most of the east medeterenians close to shepardhaid jews admixtures, why not Ashkenazi Jews couldnt have Hazar ancestry?

    Here is the link of the his academic paper. http://gbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...vw046.full.pdf

    Actually the model in 38th page probably disturbing some traditional jewish thesis. Could some one converted to Judaism? Yes why not!!! I will not suprise if his theories are proved by some other scientist. Or he is disproved by scientific way

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anabasis View Post
    Well i will not advocate the Elhaik bu actual i realy hard to understand why he is reacted so much. While most of the east medeterenians close to shepardhaid jews admixtures, why not Ashkenazi Jews couldnt have Hazar ancestry?

    Here is the link of the his academic paper. http://gbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...vw046.full.pdf

    Actually the model in 38th page probably disturbing some traditional jewish thesis. Could some one converted to Judaism? Yes why not!!! I will not suprise if his theories are proved by some other scientist. Or he is disproved by scientific way
    IBD analysis and PCA analysis will put Ashkenazi Jews right next to Sephardic Jews. Elhaik's method of running people through Geno 2 (not the next gen but the old version) and then GPS'ing them puts Ashkenazis into Anatolia, but it would do the same for Sephardic Jews and even some South Italians. No one can seriously argue Sephardic Jews and Calabrians/Sicilians come from an "Anatolian Irano-Slavic mixture".

    Elhaik probably knows this too, which is why he did not include Sephardics in the study. I have to say it looks like there is an intent to separate Ashkenazi from the "genetic jewish" group by any means necessary involved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    This is meant to be a continuation of our conversation in the New DNA Papers thread.

    In light of the recent media coverage of Das et al. 2016's peer-reviewed paper on the origins of Ashkenazi Jewry (which I've already mentioned here), one finds himself compelled to ask a very specific question: Considering Behar et al. 2013's conclusive rebuttal of Eran Elhaik's (who is one of the authors of the aforementioned study) former paper on this issue, isn't the inquiry simply pointless? And despite all the media hype around Elhaik's theories, isn't he basically arguing against the data?

    By all means, discuss.
    In principle, it is useful for someone to be out there advocating a radical theory. This researcher seems to have adopted the model of consistently advocating nonsense rather than plausible science. Serious linguists don't attach any credibility to these ideas.

    Ultimately, by advocating nonsense, he attracts attention to himself. Perhaps that is the goal rather than serious inquiry.
    Last edited by warwick; 04-24-2016 at 08:28 PM.

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    I think it is quite obvious to anyone who has run enough genomes of Ashkenazi people through Gedmatch oracles or in utilities in R that the best non-Ashkenazi matches approximate overwhelmingly to nearby Jewish populations or other Levantine populations with a slight Central European pull. For example, one Ashkenazi kit's best non-Ashkenazi fits:

    Eurogenes K13
    Algerian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + Serbian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.266099

    Dodecad V3
    Morocco_Jews + Sephardic_Jews + Syrians + Slovenian @ 2.114876

    puntDNALK12Modern
    German_South + Turkish_Aydin + Turkish_Jew + Yemenite_Jew @ 2.589072
     

    Other ancestral Y lines:

    E1b-M81 Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    E1b-V13 England
    I1-M253 Ireland
    I2-M423 Ukraine
    R1a-L176.1 Scotland
    R1b-L584 Syria/Turkey (Sephardi)
    R1b-L20 Ireland
    R1b-L21 (1)England; (2)Wales?>Connecticut
    R1b-L48 England
    R1b-P312 Scotland
    R1b-FGC32576 Ireland

    Other ancestral mtDNA lines:

    H1b2a Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    H6a1a3 Ukraine
    K1a9 Belarus (Ashkenazi)
    K1c2 Ireland
    V7a Ukraine

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    Quote Originally Posted by warwick View Post
    In principle, it is useful for someone to be out there advocating a radical theory. This researcher seems to have adopted the model of consistently advocating nonsense rather than plausible science. Serious linguists don't attach any credibility to these ideas.

    Ultimately, by advocating nonsense, he attracts attention to himself. Perhaps that is the goal rather than serious inquiry.
    Over the years I've also assumed that "There is no such thing as bad publicity" is Elhaik's personal motto, on the other hand there's no level he isn't willing to stoop to, I mean associationg with a clown like Paul Wexler is about as low as you can possibly get.
    מְכֹרֹתַיִךְ וּמֹלְדֹתַיִךְ מֵאֶרֶץ הַכְּנַעֲנִי אָבִיךְ הָאֱמֹרִי וְאִמֵּךְ חִתִּית
    יחזקאל פרק טז פסוק ג-

    אֲרֵי יִצְרָא לִבָּא דַּאֲנָשָׁא בִּישׁ מִזְּעוּרֵיהּ
    בראשית פרק ח פסוק כא-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJL View Post
    I think it is quite obvious to anyone who has run enough genomes of Ashkenazi people through Gedmatch oracles or in utilities in R that the best non-Ashkenazi matches approximate overwhelmingly to nearby Jewish populations or other Levantine populations with a slight Central European pull. For example, one Ashkenazi kit's best non-Ashkenazi fits:

    Eurogenes K13
    Algerian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + Serbian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.266099

    Dodecad V3
    Morocco_Jews + Sephardic_Jews + Syrians + Slovenian @ 2.114876

    puntDNALK12Modern
    German_South + Turkish_Aydin + Turkish_Jew + Yemenite_Jew @ 2.589072
    Indeed, the sheer similarity between Sephardic and AJs is conveniently and consistently ignored by Elhaik, on the other hand I'm not really seeing that Central European pull you speak of, in fact the AJs' European admixture seems to be similar to that of Italian, Romaniote and French Jews by and large.

    Take my dad's results for instance, the only test where he gets German in his 4-way oracle's non-Ashkenazi fits is Dodecad V3, but even there we have at least one fit which follows the general pattern I'm talking about, that is to say Southern European/Mediterranean admixture:


    Dodecad V3
    Portuguese + Syrians + Turkish + Tuscan @ 1.780126


    Dodecad K12b
    Bulgarians + Cypriots + Iraq_Jews + Murcia @ 1.475580


    Dodecad K7b
    O_Italian + Samaritians + Turkish + Valencia @ 0.778724


    Eurogenes V2 K15
    Greek_Thessaly + Kurdish_Jewish + Libyan_Jewish + Spanish_Galicia @ 4.570015


    puntDNAK12Modern
    French + Sicilian_West + Tunisian_Jew + Turkish_Aydin @ 0.878017


    Harappa World
    french + lebanese + lebanese-christian + tuscan @ 1.337348


    MDLP K13
    France + Italy_North + Lebanese + Syrian_Jew @ 0.000000
    Cretan + North_Greek + Spain + Syrian @ 0.273508
    Italy-Friul + Occitan + Samaritian + Syrian_Jew @ 0.287489


    ^^The Southern European admixture is highlighted in red, I added the other MDLP K13 fits to highlight what "French" or "France" actually means here (since France is quite diverse and regionally stratified, here this undeniably stands for the southernmost French hence the "Occitan" in the last fit). Could've done the same for most of the other tests, there's no shortage of such fits in general.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 04-25-2016 at 01:28 AM.
    מְכֹרֹתַיִךְ וּמֹלְדֹתַיִךְ מֵאֶרֶץ הַכְּנַעֲנִי אָבִיךְ הָאֱמֹרִי וְאִמֵּךְ חִתִּית
    יחזקאל פרק טז פסוק ג-

    אֲרֵי יִצְרָא לִבָּא דַּאֲנָשָׁא בִּישׁ מִזְּעוּרֵיהּ
    בראשית פרק ח פסוק כא-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Indeed, the sheer similarity between Sephardic and AJs is conveniently and consistently ignored by Elhaik, on the other hand I'm not really seeing that Central European pull you speak of, in fact the AJs' European admixture seems to be similar to that of Italian, Romaniote and French Jews by and large.
    I suspect that the direction of the pull away from the Near East will differ from case to case, perhaps dictated by distant admixture, or by drift, or by chance of recombination.

    Another AJ kit, with the same oracles, gets a much more Balkan pull but perhaps suggesting distant Sephardi ancestry:

    Eurogenes K13
    Bulgarian + Greek_Thessaly + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze @ 3.796003

    Dodecad V3
    Balkans + Druze + Georgia_Jews + Portuguese @ 1.452617

    puntDNALK12Modern
    Hungarian + Kurdish + Libyan_Jew + Libyan_Jew @ 1.247540

    In this last case, if you leave out "Libyan Jew" and average Hungarian and Kurdish, you should find a spot somewhere in Turkey.
     

    Other ancestral Y lines:

    E1b-M81 Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    E1b-V13 England
    I1-M253 Ireland
    I2-M423 Ukraine
    R1a-L176.1 Scotland
    R1b-L584 Syria/Turkey (Sephardi)
    R1b-L20 Ireland
    R1b-L21 (1)England; (2)Wales?>Connecticut
    R1b-L48 England
    R1b-P312 Scotland
    R1b-FGC32576 Ireland

    Other ancestral mtDNA lines:

    H1b2a Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    H6a1a3 Ukraine
    K1a9 Belarus (Ashkenazi)
    K1c2 Ireland
    V7a Ukraine

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJL View Post
    I suspect that the direction of the pull away from the Near East will differ from case to case, perhaps dictated by distant admixture, or by drift, or by chance of recombination.

    Another AJ kit, with the same oracles, gets a much more Balkan pull but perhaps suggesting distant Sephardi ancestry:

    Eurogenes K13
    Bulgarian + Greek_Thessaly + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze @ 3.796003

    Dodecad V3
    Balkans + Druze + Georgia_Jews + Portuguese @ 1.452617

    puntDNALK12Modern
    Hungarian + Kurdish + Libyan_Jew + Libyan_Jew @ 1.247540

    In this last case, if you leave out "Libyan Jew" and average Hungarian and Kurdish, you should find a spot somewhere in Turkey.
    That Eurogenes K13 fit you just posted is quite telling, as you probably know I suspect that for the most part the European ancestry of Western Jews (Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Maghrebi etc.) is Greek and Aegean in origin, so the presence of "Greek_Thessaly" is intriguing as it shows up more than once, not only in AJs but also in Sephardim and other Western Jews.

    Although my dad has no non-Ashkenazi fits in K13, he stills gets "Greek_Thessaly" in 3 of the 4-way oracle fits:

    Ashkenazi + Greek_Thessaly + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish @ 2.938966
    Ashkenazi + Greek_Thessaly + Italian_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.182374
    Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Greek_Thessaly + Italian_Jewish @ 3.357651
    מְכֹרֹתַיִךְ וּמֹלְדֹתַיִךְ מֵאֶרֶץ הַכְּנַעֲנִי אָבִיךְ הָאֱמֹרִי וְאִמֵּךְ חִתִּית
    יחזקאל פרק טז פסוק ג-

    אֲרֵי יִצְרָא לִבָּא דַּאֲנָשָׁא בִּישׁ מִזְּעוּרֵיהּ
    בראשית פרק ח פסוק כא-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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