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Thread: R1b SNP Packs from FTDNA

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertCasey View Post
    It should be expected that the rate of new SNP packs are slowing down in the major parts of R1b like L21. I am more concerned about them keeping these SNP Packs updated. Currently, FTDNA has less than half of the L226 branches in the Z253 test. Other than the obvious that they can only do updates around once per year due to setup / design costs, I think another major factor is that Z253 pack order rates are pretty reasonable and steady state. The next step would be to split Z253 SNP pack into two or three SNP packs but orders may not be significant enough to justify this breakup. In the mean time, YSEQ quickly updated their Z253 panel test and it now includes all but two L226 branches. I submitted all the new L226 branches as requests for new individual YSNP tests (no response). Is there some better way to inform FTDNA of all the many new branches missing in SNP packs (most discovered from comparing Big Y tests only) ?



    I think FTDNA is getting back into the innovative mode by massive updating of their haplotree. With innovation comes some baggage of learning curve but I advocate being patient vs. demanding, otherwise they may slow down the innovation. Under the R haplogroup, ISOGG only has 25 % of FTDNA's terminal YSNPs and even Alex's BigTree has only 50 % of the terminal YSNPs. However, FTDNA uses a lot of equivalent YSNPs as terminal YSNPs, so Alex's percentage is probably much higher. It is really encouraging that a vendor is now leading the pack in creating the best haplotree - probably a reaction to Alex's fine work.

    We need to remove the phrase "terminal SNPs" from the discussions. It is misleading. Use something like latest known shared SNP.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cofgene View Post
    We need to remove the phrase "terminal SNPs" from the discussions. It is misleading. Use something like latest known shared SNP.
    If a term isn't currently used how about "most recent known SNP" (MRKS) or most recent common SNP (MRCS)
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 04-16-2016 at 04:54 PM.
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  4. #23
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    or Most recent identified SNP (MoRIS) or youngest identified SNP (YIS)

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     Saetro (04-16-2016)

  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cofgene View Post
    We need to remove the phrase "terminal SNPs" from the discussions. It is misleading. Use something like latest known shared SNP.
    Any replacement term needs to be 1)brief 2)memorable 3)not unpronounceable alphabet soup.
    It takes a lot of effort to encourage ordinary people to join haplogroup studies.
    The more who do, the more information is available for all to benefit.
    These long terms just put people off.
    At the very least, any term that consists of initials should form a pre-existing word - (the correct meaning of "acronym") - or at least a pseudo-word.
    Instead of Mitchell's "MRKS" try "MoRKS", for example.
    Armando's "MoRIS" is pronounceable but somehow I don't find it memorable. (Probably just me.)
    Last edited by Saetro; 04-16-2016 at 11:55 PM.

  7. #25
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    How about something like Terminal Observed Public SNP; TOPS or TOPSNP.

    The meaning of "terminal" is obvious as an end point of sorts on the haplotree. "Observed" speaks to the fact that the SNP has actually been found in the sample, allowing for samples where a single SNP testing process was used (I.e. Sanger sequencing or SNP Packs) as well as NGS tests lacking coverage of some regions. "Public" is in common with ISOGG's usage meaning that the SNP is old enough or shared widely enough to be shared by several families or lineage.

    TOPS or TOPSNP is also readable or its own and the word "top" itself also implies a sort of endpoint, so it's not too difficult to remember.

  8. #26
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    According to ISOGG "terminal SNP" is proper to describe this situation.

    A terminal SNP is the defining SNP of the latest subclade known by current research.
    Until next month (when my closest STR match's FGC Y elite 2.1 results come out), my terminal SNP is Y9080/FGC123401 et al. It is the latest subclade known by current research.

    Next month, current research will identify a new latest SNP i.e. terminal SNP.

    So why do we need a new term again?


    As this is the common understanding of the "terminal SNP", maybe an easier solution is a term to distinguish between latest known by research and the no kidding last SNP in a line.

    As I said in another thread I include the term "current" before "terminal SNP" i.e. "my current terminal SNP" to indicate that this is what is currently known. Maybe include the term "final terminal SNP" to indicate that this line has been fully researched.

    If those are too long one could abbreviate it to CT-SNP and FT-SNP.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 04-17-2016 at 06:41 PM.
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  10. #27
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    "my terminal SNP is Y9080/FGC123401" - Mitchell

    What exactly does this mean.

    I took the 67 marker STR FTDNA test and was told I was M269. As many years ago I had test on the old Nat Geo 12 STR as Rb1, the result was rather disappointing.

    So I tested on the SNP pack which was offered and the result came back as DF21, with no mention of any "terminal SNP".

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    You are heading in the right direction down the tree but DF21 is ~4k years old and there is a big tree underneath it to explore before your lowest level SNP. For that you will need one of the DF21 tests (FTDNA or YSEQ).

    Also please don't forget STR tests do not give you a haplogroup (= SNP group) per se - they are different tests. You may get a predicted SNP or a SNP run at the same time you ordered an STR test.
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  13. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peccavi View Post
    "my terminal SNP is Y9080/FGC123401" - Mitchell

    What exactly does this mean.
    Maybe using the example of my dad's results will help.

    My father's BigY test results came out in March 2014 and my dad was the first person to match 6 previously novel SNPs of an individual that participated in the 1000 genome project. He was known as Hg01777 from Valencia Spain.

    These SNPs created a new branch called R-Z142>R-Z150>FGC12378, FGC12379, FGC12380, FGC12381 (aka Y3140), FGC12382, and FGC12383. These FGC SNPs were no longer novel to Hg01777, and became new terminal SNPs that we both shared.

    In Dec 2014, kit# 268283 BigY results came in and he was the first person to match my father's previously novel SNPs FGC12401 (aka Y9080), FGC12402, FGC12403, FGC12404, FGC12405. These FGC SNPs were no longer novel to my father, but were now the new terminal SNPs for our new branch.

    So in the above example, FGC12378 et al are still Hg01777's current terminal SNPs (he hasn't had any futher matches with his current list of novel SNPs), but they are no longer my father's current terminal SNPs.

    In Nov 2015 Kit# 268283 had one of his novel SNPs match the BigY results of kit# E14371. This SNP, Y19291, is now their new terminal SNP/branch.

    This may help visualize the above https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y3140/
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 04-18-2016 at 01:25 AM.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
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  15. #30
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    When I first ordered my 67 markers on November 18, 2006, my first terminal YSNP was R-M269. Yes that is right, we had my narrowed down my connections to only 75 % of Irish people. At this time, M222 was listed as brother to U106. In 2008, P312 and L21 were discovered and when I ordered my "Deep Clade" test on 1/9/2010, I confirmed my new terminal SNP, L21. Then later in 2010, Dennis Wright and others sponsored a "Walk The Y" which discovered L226. This was a huge improvement as this was single YSTR signature YSNP that remains 100 % accurate via prediction even today. But from encouragement from Dennis, went ahead a verified my L226+ status on 4/9/2011. This single signature status was a real breakthrough and got me interested in YSNPs in a big way.

    Then $1,325 went to Full Genomes Corporation for Y Elite 1.0 on June 3, 2013 which was the first NGS test under L226. But I had to wait for Big Y to arrive and then in November, 2014, FGC5628 became my terminal SNP (which eliminated around 35 % of L226 from being closely related to me). ISOGG then added FGC5660 above FGC5628 but ISOGG will not add my new terminal YSNP FGC5659 which covers only around 35 % of L226 since it is an insert-delete. Recently, I convinced a close relative to test one of my private YSNPs and I now have a new terminal SNP, FGC5639. This terminal YSNP is a genealogical YSNP that is around 1,000 years old (when the Casey surname originated) and only has Casey individuals testing positive to date (along with two obvious NPEs of Casey men that should test positive as well). We now have pending tests for four private YSNPs of mine that will hopefully split the Casey cluster into two branches and create yet another terminal YSNP. I still have twelve more private YSNPs not tested by Big Y that could find even more terminal YSNPs (or another major branch) and four more private YSNPs not tested by Casey testers to date.
    Last edited by RobertCasey; 04-18-2016 at 01:29 AM.

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