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Thread: Ancient Y DNA from Sudan

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by King View Post
    I doubt E in Arabia is as diverse as E in Ethiopia (if I'm mistaken, let me know), and I think that's the reason Ethiopian E* has a lower frequency. Not to mention, Arabia, unlike Ethiopia, was always sparsely populated. Which makes it prone to founder effects.
    Ditto.

    @ Passa

    How do you explain the overall diversity of Y-DNA E in Africa relative to West Eurasia? Specifically E1a, E1b1c and E2.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgbk87 View Post
    How do you explain the overall diversity of Y-DNA E in Africa relative to West Eurasia? Specifically E1a, E1b1c and E2
    There's no need for large text, ma mayne. Keep it a little more civil... But, if I'm not mistaken, what Passa is posing is that E in general, after having split from its brother clade supposedly in Eurasia, found its way into Africa and all diversity in it from there mostly developed within Africa... From his perspective E is obviously a part of CT and thus most of this clade's diversity is to be found in Eurasians and not Africans. Try to see things from his perspective here (I'm not personally agreeing with either of you though) and keep things civil. There's no rational reason not to as I pointed out to Lank in private:

     
    Quote Originally Posted by Sheikh of Sheikhs
    I just never understood people who were even thinking that discussing E's origins and using Mota as a backdrop to this was appropriate... Why? D&E diverged about 68,000 years ago and E, if I recall correctly, began splitting around 53-54kya... So... How did these broskis think an E-M329 4,500 year old Southwestern Ethiopian being either "Eurasian" or "African" shifted was going to have any real bearing on the origins of an HG THAT old? Some mental gymnastics, I say.

    I also don't even get why anyone "emotionally" cares if it was "Eurasian" or "African". Do they know how ancient this HG is? When D&E were unified "Eurasians" and certain "Africans" as they genetically are now did not exist... Humans were probably generally less diverged (probably not even physically very different overall but who knows) and in numbers much smaller overall (world-wide population size below 3 million, I'd guess). Our species really would've looked like various small foraging "tribes" spread out across Africa and some parts of Eurasia.

    Think some just have a habit of observing pre-history (very early pre-history) with modern eyes with all these concepts of "separateness" and "nationhood" and "ethnic groups" and large population sizes per group, like it goes over their head how small Humanity was overall before agriculture really caught on. Hell, we only began hitting 1-2 billion for the world-wide populace later into the Modern Period just to put things into perspective. The Horn itself which is now over 110 million people strong wasn't over 35 million people in 1960 alone (i.e. 2-3 million for Somalia and 22-24 million for Ethiopia)...[/


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  5. #23
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    Don't forget you guys that E is a macro-haplogroup. E1b and E1a have such a long separated history. E1b1b could easily by isolation in North/East Africa create an own sub African population.

    pgbk is asking a tough question though. And, don't forget about the Basal Eurasian component. It's very foreign to the hunter-gatherer admixture, in fact Hunter-Gatherers and East-Eurasians are closer to each other than to Basal Eurasian. This gives us a big hint that something along the line in Levant something happened. E-s and G-s mixing between eachother?
    Last edited by Moderator; 02-29-2016 at 10:35 AM. Reason: unnecessary personalization comment removed

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  7. #24
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    My bad on the D&E divergence/formation dates btw... T'was 63-64kya but the points still stand.
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  9. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awale View Post
    There's no need for large text, ma mayne. Keep it a little more civil...
    Trust me, I'm just curious of what his answer will be. I'm a follower of facts not emotions. He blatantly ignored the question. That was an emotional response. I bolded it so he wouldn't ignore it this time. Thankfully since you responded first, he will hopefully respond now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baws View Post
    pgbk is asking a tough question though. And, don't forget about the Basal Eurasian component. It's very foreign to the hunter-gatherer admixture, in fact Hunter-Gatherers and East-Eurasians are closer to each other than to Basal Eurasian. This gives us a big hint that something along the line in Levant something happened. E-s and G-s mixing between each other?
    I think if the situation was reversed, there would be no discussion as to whether E* was Eurasian. But it really doesn't matter because essentially ALL E* found in Eurasia is Northwest or Northeast African in origin. The whole back-migrations arguments are just smoke and mirrors, because CT has an ancestor that was African.

    How can can anyone argue for a Eurasian origin of such an old Y-DNA, when modern Eurasians (or most modern Africans for that matter ) didn't even exist yet, and CT is the descendant of African BT?
    Last edited by pgbk87; 02-29-2016 at 01:43 PM.

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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awale View Post
    There's no need for large text, ma mayne. Keep it a little more civil... But, if I'm not mistaken, what Passa is posing is that E in general, after having split from its brother clade supposedly in Eurasia, found its way into Africa and all diversity in it from there mostly developed within Africa... From his perspective E is obviously a part of CT and thus most of this clade's diversity is to be found in Eurasians and not Africans. Try to see things from his perspective here (I'm not personally agreeing with either of you though) and keep things civil. There's no rational reason not to as I pointed out to Lank in private:

     


    Very well said. I was thinking exactly this whilst reading the thread. This should be a huge eye opener to those vested in these origins. To me, it is especially interesting that the population groups of now were not the population groups of then; a reminder of how silly it is for people to be such - in my own opinion, of course - radical ethno centrists.
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  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    Somalis are not loaded with J or T.both of these combined are still less then 20% of Y-DNA haplogroups that occur among the population.The females having a huge role in West Eurasian admixture is correct but what still doesn't make sense to me that those migrants (E-V32 pastoralists) from Egypt/northern Sudan wouldn't have Eurasian ancestry.
    That can be explained by founder effect among Somalis and other highly endogenous and patriarchal populations; however, there are certain Somali clans/enclaves with higher levels of ydna T for example, which imho acted as the primary mode, paternally, of Western Eurasian admixture in Somalis and other Cushitic speakers. The pastoralist cultures that brought E-V32 to the Horn also likely carried with them T and other minor Eurasian unilateral lineages, and - I agree with you - that admixture event likely took place in the vicinity of Egypt.

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  15. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by gihanga.rwanda View Post
    That can be explained by founder effect among Somalis and other highly endogenous and patriarchal populations; however, there are certain Somali clans/enclaves with higher levels of ydna T for example, which imho acted as the primary mode, paternally, of Western Eurasian admixture in Somalis and other Cushitic speakers. The pastoralist cultures that brought E-V32 to the Horn also likely carried with them T and other minor Eurasian unilateral lineages, and - I agree with you - that admixture event likely took place in the vicinity of Egypt.
    Yep, although J1 could be a candidate but T1a is definitely a pretty important Haplogroup for Horn Africans. Heck, your own South Cushitic speaking ancestors carried Y-DNA T1a . I recall a data-set having like 11% T in Iraqws (shared a link for it here, I believe) so your South Cushitic speaking ancestors carried T for sure, I'd say. It's important to note this because East and South Cushitic have a "closer" relationship within the Cushitic branch:

     


    If you couple that with these old divergence dates Agamemnon gave me (from a over a year and a half ago but he somewhat vaguely re-affirmed them recently):

     
    ~4000 BCE: Proto-East-South Cushitic possibly spoken
    ~2800 BCE: Lowland East Cushitic, Highland East Cushitic and Dullay diverge from Proto-East Cushitic
    ~1800 BCE: "Macro-Somali", Afar-Saho & Oromoid diverge from Lowland East Cushitic
    ~1000 BCE: "Macro-Somali" diverges


    And if there's any chance that "Southern" & "Eastern" Cushitic speakers remained rather genetically separate since the break down of Proto-East-South Cushitic then T1a appearing in South Cushitic speakers and some Southeast Africans with South Cushitic speaker admixture (check T-M184's wiki page for this) is no bloody joke... Means this lineage is immensely old among Horn Africans. In my current opinion South Cushitic speakers' paternal lineages would've been E-M293 (noticed thanks to Trombetta et al.), A-M13 & T1a (and maaaybeee E-V32).

    Side note:

     
    Granted, there's an intriguingly slight distinction between the Horn African element in numerous Southeast Africans and the elements in Somalis. Somalis can often show this odd "Mediterranean" esque influence that isn't present in the likes of Maasais or, if I recall correctly, Datogs who're usually more South Cushitic speaker admixed than Maasais, if my memory serves me right. Could be nothing but it's intriguing because the pattern can persist in various other runs (i.e. 1 & 2) much like the "Caucasus" distinction between Somalis and the Habesha-Agaw-Oromo bunch where Somalis will often show very little or no "Caucasus" related ancestry in comparison to Tigrinyas or Beta Israels.

    Myself and Lank once wondered if this was a signal for an even earlier "later West Eurasian gene flow" into the Horn than the one present in Agaws and the seemingly later one in Ethiopian Semitic speakers.
    Last edited by Awale; 03-01-2016 at 05:31 PM.
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  17. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awale View Post
    Yep, although J1 could be a candidate but T1a is definitely a pretty important Haplogroup for Horn Africans.
    Does anyone know of any sub-clade work on T1a from this area?
    Of the academic studies I have seen M70 (T1a) is almost always as far as they go.
    Mendez, Karafet et al. 2011 had two relevant mentions - P[AGE]S21 in Ethiopia and PS21 and P77 in Egypt and maybe they will serve as proxies for the Sudan.
    But apart from this?
    If there were more work on T subclades there might be some rub-off for E.

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    From a site stating that T1 origins are with Altai-kazaks

    on african migration
    Zheng He of Turkic ethnic origin, had Y-DNA Haplogroup L1a-M76. In the 15th Century AD, Zheng He executed dozens of missions/voyages to some regions such as Indonesia, Madagascar, Somalia. It is a fact that Zheng He and his crew/team brought Islam(or at least caused for Islam to be dominant) into these regions.

    Zheng He had the typical noble Turk mental character, he brought peace in the regions he managed or ruled, justice was performed equally for the complete population. For example, Zheng He played such an important role in the history of Indonesia, that even today some people in Indonesia consider Zheng He as a GOD.

    The people in Indonesia speak a Malagasy language. The people in Madagascar also speak a Malagasy language. A similar genetic structure was found among the samples from Indonesia, Madagascar and Somalia/Ethiopia at the studies Capredon et al 2013, Kusuma et al 2014, Tofonelli et al 2009, and C. A. Plaster et al. The high frequencies of haplogroup O found in these samples, shows that there was a migration conducted of Muslim Turks from China into these countries.

    Zheng He was a Muslim of Central Asian Turk ethnic origin, his Y-DNA haplogroup was L1a-M76. The Y-DNA mutation LT-P326 is the direct ancestor of the Y-DNA haplogroups L1a-M76 and T1a-M70. This fact shows that both haplogroups are of Turk origin.

    The existance of these two haplogroups L1a and T1a(together with J1, J2, R1a and R1b) among the Indonesian and Madagascar samples, shows that the members of these haplogroups are brought by the Muslim Central Asian Turks whom were ethnically related to Zheng He. The same Muslim Central Asian Turks brought these haplogroups also into Somalia. The Dravidians(their homeland is Central Asia, migrated later to India) that speak a language closely related to Altaic and Turk and Proto Turk(Sumerian) languages, could also have played an earlier role(maybe during the time of the Sumerians) in the transportation of these haplogroups into these regions. Not to forget the fact that the Ottoman Turks ruled the regions around Somalia for a long time.

    Some of the haplogroup O members could be associated with Han Chinese people. The haplogroup B and some of the haplogroup E members could be associated with African people.

    The finding at the M. A. Gubina et al 2013 study, of 38,8%(19/49) of haplogroup K*(xL,N,O,P) among the Muslim Kosh-Agach tribes of the Kazakh Turks who live in the Altai Republic, confirms the fact that haplogroup T1a, together with L1a, G, H, J1, J2, R1a and R1b is of Muslim Central Asian Turk ethnic origin.

    .................................................. .................

    According to the Chinese sources, the ancestors of Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar and later Zheng He were Turks who lived in Xinjiang(probably around the Altai regions) and Central Asia(between China and Uzbekistan-Turkmenistan). The fact that Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar and later Zheng He belonged to Haplogroup L1a, and the fact that 38,8% of T is found among Altaian Kazakh Turks, shows that L and T should be found among ancient Turk graves. The Turks that were related to Zheng He(his crew), could have brought the T into the regions of Somalia, India and Indonesia, during his voyages. Also, not to forget the fact that the Ottoman Turks ruled Somalia for a long time from the 16th century.



    M. Capredon finds 55,0%(22/40) of haplogroup T among the Anteony tribe of the Antemoro who live in Madagascar. In the same study, haplogroup O(O2a1) is found with 5%(2/40) among the Anteony tribe of the Antemoro, and among the Antalaotra tribe of the Antemoro haplogroup O(O2a1, O1a2) is found with 44,2%(19/43). We should also mention the fact that R1a1 is found among the Antalaotra tribe with 2,3%(1/43), and T is found with 9,3%(4/43), which shows that the members of these R1a1 and T results relate with each other, just like R1b relates with T in a couple of African tribes.

    C. A. Plaster finds 82.4%(14/17) of haplogroup K*(xL,N1c,O2b,P) among the Dire Dawa tribe of the Somalis who live in Ethiopia. The complete sample size of the study is 5756, with members of tens of tribes that participated. Frequency of Haplogroup K*(xL,N1c,O2b,P) was only found among the Darood(19/83 = 22,9%) and Dire Dawa tribes of the Somalis, in all other tribes it was found with lower than 3,4%. The analysis and prediction of the Y-STR haplotypes of the 14/17 K*(xL,N1c,O2b,P) results among the Dire Dawa, showed that they could belong to haplogroups like N(xN1c), O2a1, O1a2, T. In the same study, 10 out of the 377 Ethiopians were first defined as K*(xL,N1c,O2b,P), and after the genotyping of some additional markers(including the marker of T), 5 of the 377 Ethiopians belonged to T, and 5 belonged to K*(xL,N1c,O2b,P,T). Knowing that T and O2a1, O1a2 were found with frequencies like 55,0%(22/40) and 44,2%(19/43) among the Antemoro, shows that approximately the half of the 14/17 K*(xL,N1c,O2b,P) results among the Dire Dawa tribe should belong to T and O. We could predict that the results of these T and O could be like 38% T, 38% O2a/O1a and 6% N(xN1c).

    The fact that O and T are found together in the previous examples shows that the origin of these results lie between East Asia and India, which is equal to the regions in Central Asia from the Altai Republic to the Turkmenistan countries. This shows that members of Altaian Kazakh Turks are the root of haplogroup T. The highest sample set also belongs to the study of M. A. Gubina, with 49 samples. The M. Capredon study sample size was 40, so if this 40 increases to 49, the T results should be approximately equally as the T in the M. A. Gubina study. The sample size of R. Trivedi and C. A. Plaster was 17, 18 and 19 which is lower than halve of the sample size of M. A. Gubina.

    P. Kusuma finds 7,4% of haplogroup T among the Bajo tribes in Indonesia. The languages spoken by the Antemoro tribes in Madagascar(Malagasy) and the Bajo tribes(Bajau/Sinama) in Indonesia are of the same Barito language origin, which shows that the T members of Madagascar and Indonesia should have originated and migrated from the Dravidians in India. Migration occured from India to Indonesia, and from here to Madagascar. At this point we should note the fact that Madagascar is very close to Somalia and Ethiopia, which shows that the Somalian T members are associated with the T members in Madagascar. Both migrated from India.

    It is a fact, that the Dravidians language is related and is very similar to the Ural-Altaic languages. In fact there are many linguistic academicians that proof the similarities between the modern Turk language and the Dravidian language. Both, the Turk and Dravidian languages are directly originated from the Sumerian language, which is also a Proto Turk language. In the historical records it is mentioned that the origin of the Dravidians was in the Central Asian regions, and that they migrated from Central Asia to the Indian regions. This shows again that the Altaian Kazakh Turks are the root of all T members.



    I have read some of these papers in full and it makes sense since Yfull have found no T1 marker older than 2000 years in Arabia or east Africa


    My Path = ( K-M9+, LT-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-CTS6397 yDna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtDna
    Son's mtDna = K1a4p

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