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Thread: Romano-Briton Sample is L2+FGC22501+

  1. #1
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    Romano-Briton Sample is L2+FGC22501+

    As I posted in the Ancient DNA thread, sample 6DRIF-22 from York and dated ~100-400 AD is U152+L2+FGC22501+. Here are the SNPs below the FGC22501 group he belongs to:

    *** Positive:
    8093829(A/G)+
    7866684(A/G)+
    2889012(G/C)+
    8141406(A/G)+
    17331282(A/G)+
    19481839(C/T)+
    23354888(C/A)+

    *** Unknown (no reads):
    14287006(C/A)
    3745712(G/T)
    5034012(C/T)
    14288276(G/A)
    19056131(T/A)
    22742147(ATT/ATTT)

    *** Negative
    6013871(A/G)-
    13851130(T/G)-
    17401242(CATA/CA)- (read length may not be long enough to detect deletions)

    His SNP matches below FGC22501 are from three anonymous men from Bristol and kit no. 210621 MDKA John Whiffing (bap. 1766), Richmond, Surrey, England. His Y-DNA matches are in line with what the isotope analysis showed, which is that he could have been born in an area to the south or west of Britain. Closest IBS sharing of sample 6DRIF-22 was with modern day Welsh, Irish and Scots in that order.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 01-22-2016 at 07:31 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  3. #2
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    Well done Richard, are you going to have a poke at the others ?

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  5. #3
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    How did I miss that? Oh well. Thanks and great job on the analysis.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    35% English, 15% Scottish, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 11% Ulster Scot, 5% Ireland, 3% Scandinavian, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
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  6. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    As I posted in the Ancient DNA thread, sample 6DRIF-22 from York and dated ~100-400 AD is U152+L2+FGC22501+. Here are the SNPs below the FGC22501 group he belongs to:

    *** Positive:
    8093829(A/G)+
    7866684(A/G)+
    2889012(G/C)+
    8141406(A/G)+
    17331282(A/G)+
    19481839(C/T)+
    23354888(C/A)+

    *** Unknown (no reads):
    14287006(C/A)
    3745712(G/T)
    5034012(C/T)
    14288276(G/A)
    19056131(T/A)
    22742147(ATT/ATTT)

    *** Negative
    6013871(A/G)-
    13851130(T/G)-
    17401242(CATA/CA)- (read length may not be long enough to detect deletions)

    His SNP matches below FGC22501 are from three anonymous men from Bristol and kit no. 210621 MDKA John Whiffing (bap. 1766), Richmond, Surrey, England. His Y-DNA matches are in line with what the isotope analysis showed, which is that he could have been born in an area to the south or west of Britain. Closest IBS sharing of sample 6DRIF-22 was with modern day Welsh, Irish and Scots in that order.
    Using the Yfull-based SNP Estimator excel worksheet and assuming a positive SNP match for 14287006(C/A), 14288276(G/A), 19056131(T/A), and 22742147(ATT/ATTT); that would put R1b-L2 at 1680 to 2256 years before 6DRIF-22.
    That seems little too young for R-L2 (Yfull estimates L2 at 4500 ybp) so maybe there are additional novel SNPs for 6DRIF-22. You would need about 4-5 novel SNPs in the ComBED area to put L2 at 4500 ybp.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 01-22-2016 at 09:35 PM.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    35% English, 15% Scottish, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 11% Ulster Scot, 5% Ireland, 3% Scandinavian, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
    Hidden Content

  7. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Using the Yfull-based SNP Estimator excel worksheet and assuming a positive SNP match for 14287006(C/A), 14288276(G/A), 19056131(T/A), and 22742147(ATT/ATTT); that would put R1b-L2 at 1680 to 2256 years before 6DRIF-22.
    That seems little too young for R-L2 (Yfull estimates L2 at 4500 ybp) so maybe there are additional novel SNPs for 6DRIF-22. You would need about 4-5 novel SNPs in the ComBED area to put L2 at 4500 ybp.
    The raw data has dozens of other novel SNPs, but it is impossible to decipher which are due to the low amount of reads (~1x). For example, if the first read is derived, but the rest of the reads for that same position on a high quality sample would have given 20 straight ancestral reads, the the consensus would clearly be ancestral, thus ruling that out as a true variant.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  9. #6
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    Israel Israel Jerusalem United Kingdom England Scotland Isle of Man
    Where does this put FGC22501's TMRCA estimates?
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  11. #7
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    I want to thank Rich Rocca for his dogged persistence in chasing down the data and uncovering this match.

    I went on to Jean Manco's website and I count a total of 7 British Roman Age Y sequenced samples and the 2 Hixton samples from the Iron age. So 9 in total. We have 1 sample RISE563 which is U152 on the continent (Germany). Our project has FGC22501 matches in England, Belgium, Germany, Netherlands and Romania. FGC22501 appeared in a 1K project sample and was named when my husband's Y Elite sample showed a match.

    This is an unprecedented in its degree of specificity and although very few understand what this means I am like in DNA heaven. Whiffing has joined the FGC22501 group at FTDNA and is excited as he should be!

    The additional information includes this graphicFGC22501 6DRF-22.jpg

    Numbered squares (1-3) represent the 3 best matching populations. You will note that #1 is right where the Bristol and assumed WHEATON progenitor are from. What this suggests is that we will be able to combine ancient DNA samples and current DNA and create a migration pattern that will uncover the past. I never thought I would see this in my lifetime. The odds are astronomical....

    As I shared on Facebook I was within .2 of a mile of the recovery site in York this past April---I stayed at a B&B about .4 miles away. I also visited Stogursey, Somerset and Wheddon Cross in Somerset which I believe maybe the WHEATOn homeland in Britain. Upon return I realized that the Wick Barrow Bell Beaker site is within spitting distance of Stogursey---never underestimate the power of following one's nose...

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  13. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwheaton View Post
    I want to thank Rich Rocca for his dogged persistence in chasing down the data and uncovering this match.

    I went on to Jean Manco's website and I count a total of 7 British Roman Age Y sequenced samples and the 2 Hixton samples from the Iron age. So 9 in total. We have 1 sample RISE563 which is U152 on the continent (Germany). Our project has FGC22501 matches in England, Belgium, Germany, Netherlands and Romania. FGC22501 appeared in a 1K project sample and was named when my husband's Y Elite sample showed a match.

    This is an unprecedented in its degree of specificity and although very few understand what this means I am like in DNA heaven. Whiffing has joined the FGC22501 group at FTDNA and is excited as he should be!

    The additional information includes this graphicFGC22501 6DRF-22.jpg

    Numbered squares (1-3) represent the 3 best matching populations. You will note that #1 is right where the Bristol and assumed WHEATON progenitor are from. What this suggests is that we will be able to combine ancient DNA samples and current DNA and create a migration pattern that will uncover the past. I never thought I would see this in my lifetime. The odds are astronomical....

    As I shared on Facebook I was within .2 of a mile of the recovery site in York this past April---I stayed at a B&B about .4 miles away. I also visited Stogursey, Somerset and Wheddon Cross in Somerset which I believe maybe the WHEATOn homeland in Britain. Upon return I realized that the Wick Barrow Bell Beaker site is within spitting distance of Stogursey---never underestimate the power of following one's nose...
    Just one slight adjustment on your note... the #1 represents IBS sharing with Wales... a stone throw away from Bristol, but Wales nonetheless.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  15. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Where does this put FGC22501's TMRCA estimates?
    FGC222501 (position 3390633) isn't in the ComBed area so on YFull it would be listed as the same age as L2.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    35% English, 15% Scottish, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 11% Ulster Scot, 5% Ireland, 3% Scandinavian, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
    Hidden Content

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  17. #10
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    Thanks Rich for the crification on the map point!

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