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Thread: Genomic signals of migration and continuity in Britain before the Anglo-Saxons

  1. #151
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    A few posters have mentioned that Celts practiced decapitation. I did some very "secondary source" research, but the implication was that this was done to their victims and they paraded around with them in a display of victory. However, it appears Romans may have decapitated their prisoners/criminals. Yet there seems to be some respect given to these men as they were buried with their heads. I couldn't find anything indicating gladiators regularly decapitated one another in matches, or that losers were often decapitated.
    Last edited by ADW_1981; 01-21-2016 at 03:43 PM.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster 1100 BC
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Field: R-U106
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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  3. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    A few posters have mentioned that Celts practiced decapitation. I did some very "secondary source" research, but the implication was that this was done to their victims and they paraded around with them in a display of victory. However, it appears Romans may have decapitated their prisoners/criminals. Yet there seems to be some respect given to these men as they were buried with their heads. I couldn't find anything indicating gladiators regularly decapitated one another in matches, or that losers were often decapitated.
    Could it be these men were decapitated by the Britons and later buried by the Romans? E.g. left on the battlefield after being captured and beheaded?
    Y dna continued: Z142>Z150>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    80% Brit/Ir-ish
    35% English/14% Welsh/15% Scot/11% Ulster Scot/5% Irish
    14% German/3% Scandi-Finn/2% French & Dutch/1% India

    Be more concerned about seeking the truth than winning an argument.

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  5. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I think it's now safe to say that 3DRIF-26 was mainly Arabian in origin, probably Nabataean, from the Negev, Sinai or Harrat el Sham. It's also likely he was born around the Arabian limes. In turn, this probably means that most of the Ancient North Arabian speakers (especially Safaitic, Hismaic, Dumaitic and "Thamudic" tribesmen) were very similar to 3DRIF-26 from a genetic standpoint.
    I'm really eager to learn which J2 lineage he carried now.

    Davidski just shared this PCA plot:



    "Red = England Iron Age
    Orange = England Anglo-Saxon
    Yellow = British Romans with R1b-U106
    Black = British Romans
    Black star = Middle Eastern Roman"

    He also posted 3DRIF-26's K15 results:

    ID 3DRIF-26
    North_Sea 0.02
    Atlantic 4.06
    Baltic 0
    Eastern_Euro 0
    West_Med 11.24
    West_Asian 10.99
    East_Med 46.16
    Red_Sea 20.98
    South_Asian 0
    Southeast_Asian 0
    Siberian 0
    Amerindian 0
    Oceanian 0
    Northeast_African 6.54
    Sub-Saharan 0.02
    Times of Grace posted his K15 oracle results
    The K15 oracle results for 3DRIF-26 using Admix4 [least-squares]

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Palestinian @ 7.892861
    2 Bedouin @ 9.735329
    3 Jordanian @ 10.699103
    4 Samaritan @ 10.882444
    5 Egyptian @ 12.261471
    6 Yemenite_Jewish @ 13.881736
    7 Lebanese_Christian @ 14.134447
    8 Syrian @ 15.455195
    9 Saudi @ 15.633462
    10 Libyan_Jewish @ 16.488793
    11 Lebanese_Druze @ 16.849952
    12 Tunisian_Jewish @ 16.947318
    13 Lebanese_Muslim @ 17.665131
    14 Cyprian @ 18.849272
    15 Sephardic_Jewish @ 21.690977
    16 Kurdish_Jewish @ 21.923758
    17 Algerian_Jewish @ 21.983456
    18 Iranian_Jewish @ 22.708555
    19 Italian_Jewish @ 22.898936
    20 Assyrian @ 26.329748
    206 iterations.

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 Tunisian_Jewish+Yemenite_Jewish @ 4.730545
    2 Samaritan+Yemenite_Jewish @ 5.433585
    3 Cyprian+Yemenite_Jewish @ 5.435184
    4 Libyan_Jewish+Yemenite_Jewish @ 5.54292
    5 Syrian+Yemenite_Jewish @ 5.863652
    6 Samaritan+Saudi @ 6.055764
    7 Jordanian+Yemenite_Jewish @ 6.058507
    8 Lebanese_Muslim+Yemenite_Jewish @ 6.412908
    9 Palestinian+Yemenite_Jewish @ 6.546099
    10 Sephardic_Jewish+Yemenite_Jewish @ 6.605741
    21321 iterations.

    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Yemenite_Jewish +25% Samaritan +25% Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.790951
    2 50% Samaritan +25% Egyptian +25% Yemenite_Jewish @ 3.835664
    3 50% Yemenite_Jewish +25% Cyprian +25% Egyptian @ 3.970079
    4 50% Yemenite_Jewish +25% Syrian +25% Tunisian_Jewish @ 4.141381
    5 50% Yemenite_Jewish +25% Samaritan +25% Sephardic_Jewish @ 4.156833
    6 50% Yemenite_Jewish +25% Algerian_Jewish +25% Samaritan @ 4.168106
    7 50% Yemenite_Jewish +25% Kurdish_Jewish +25% Moroccan @ 4.197818
    8 50% Yemenite_Jewish +25% Jordanian +25% Tunisian_Jewish @ 4.22339
    9 50% Yemenite_Jewish +25% Kurdish_Jewish +25% Tunisian @ 4.26225
    10 50% Yemenite_Jewish +25% Lebanese_Christian +25% Tunisian @ 4.274044
    1550395 iterations.

    Using 4 populations approximation:
    1 Samaritan+Saudi+Tunisian_Jewish+Yemenite_Jewish @ 3.616255
    2 Samaritan+Tunisian_Jewish+Yemenite_Jewish+Yemenite _Jewish @ 3.790951
    3 Egyptian+Samaritan+Samaritan+Yemenite_Jewish @ 3.835664
    4 Cyprian+Egyptian+Yemenite_Jewish+Yemenite_Jewish @ 3.970079
    5 Libyan_Jewish+Samaritan+Saudi+Yemenite_Jewish @ 4.032339
    6 Lebanese_Christian+Saudi+Tunisian_Jewish+Yemenite_ Jewish @ 4.032568
    7 Egyptian+Palestinian+Samaritan+Yemenite_Jewish @ 4.113074
    8 Syrian+Tunisian_Jewish+Yemenite_Jewish+Yemenite_Je wish @ 4.141381
    9 Samaritan+Sephardic_Jewish+Yemenite_Jewish+Yemenit e_Jewish @ 4.156833
    10 Algerian_Jewish+Samaritan+Yemenite_Jewish+Yemenite _Jewish @ 4.168106

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  7. #154
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    According to the results from the isotope analyses 6DRIF-21 didn't come from Britain.

    6Drif-21 and 24 are the two individuals for which a British origin can be firmly excluded
    http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/wp-...S-Accepted.pdf

    Does this mean we need to be careful how we draw conclusions from the 'Pairwise identity-by-state rank correlations' table ?

    Attachment 7381

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  9. #155
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    3DRIF-26 eurogenes k15
    0% baltic , 0% eastern euro
    only 4% atlantic like modern day samaritans
    even if he was jordianian he is very close to how the jews from judea were pre diaspora .
    i think it is almost the last nail in the closet that there was indid european admixture in western jews {aschenazi and sefhardic}.
    and who would have thought that we goin to reach this treasure from britain truly amazing
    regards
    adam

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  11. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    A few posters have mentioned that Celts practiced decapitation. I did some very "secondary source" research, but the implication was that this was done to their victims and they paraded around with them in a display of victory. However, it appears Romans may have decapitated their prisoners/criminals. Yet there seems to be some respect given to these men as they were buried with their heads. I couldn't find anything indicating gladiators regularly decapitated one another in matches, or that losers were often decapitated.
    I have come across a few articles which suggest that defeated gladiators were sometimes decapitated, but also that Roman soldiers would sometimes collect heads. So did the Celts . There was a similar case in London, but just the heads were found. In York they mention marks of large animal teeth on one skull, but I''ve also see reference to pits of severed heads being chewed by dogs. Of course there were bears and wolves in Britain at this time. The gladiator theory seems most probable to me though. Could these be the descendants of slaves from across the Empire trained as gladiators? Just out of curiosity does anyone know whether the blond-haired, blue-eyed individual was U106?.

    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...tUQUShKwQHOc1A

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  13. #157
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    Another possibility for the J2 individual could be a Jew. I googled and discovered a large and ancient Jewish community there. We don't know what the Jews were at that time just like the other cases were historical ethnies at that historical point and not modern or recent ethnies. A resolution of the J2 SNPs would give more elements.
    J1 FGC5987 to FGC6175 (188 new SNPs)
    MDKAs before Colonial Brazil
    Y-DNA - Milhazes, Barcelos, Minho, Portugal.
    mtDNA - Ilha Terceira, Azores, Portugal
    North_Swedish + PT + PT + PT @ 3.96 EUtest 4

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  15. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHowellsTyrfro View Post
    Just out of curiosity does anyone know whether the blond-haired, blue-eyed individual was U106?
    No that was 6DRIF-18 (R-L11) and the Anglo Saxon, 6DRIF-18 was also considered to have possibly come from outside Britain because of his isotope results.

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  17. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stellaritic View Post
    Times of Grace posted his K15 oracle results
    Wow! He truly could have been Jewish. We know Jews even at that time were spread far and wide (Josephus mentions it).

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  19. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHowellsTyrfro View Post
    I have come across a few articles which suggest that defeated gladiators were sometimes decapitated, but also that Roman soldiers would sometimes collect heads. So did the Celts . There was a similar case in London, but just the heads were found. In York they mention marks of large animal teeth on one skull, but I''ve also see reference to pits of severed heads being chewed by dogs. Of course there were bears and wolves in Britain at this time. The gladiator theory seems most probable to me though. Could these be the descendants of slaves from across the Empire trained as gladiators? Just out of curiosity does anyone know whether the blond-haired, blue-eyed individual was U106?.

    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...tUQUShKwQHOc1A
    The blond guy is labeled as L11+ (xL21, XU106, XU152). I'm not ruling out P312(xL21,XU152) or DF27 at this time until the data is thoroughly analyzed. I was able to start processing some files but ran out of time because I'm using a work laptop....
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster 1100 BC
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Field: R-U106
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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