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Thread: Neolithic and Bronze Age migration to Ireland and establishment of the insular Atlant

  1. #551
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    "We then demonstrated significant evidence for both Yamnaya (|Z|= 2.341 - 9.596) and EHG (|Z|= 1.618 8.864) introgression into each Irish Bronze Age sample when placed in a clade with the different members of MN/CA in turn using the statistic D(Mbuti, Yamnaya or EHG; Irish Bronze Age, MN/CA), with the strongest signals occurring with Ballynahatty and Spanish_CA as the MN/CA sample. Ballynahatty, of all Middle Neolithics, has the lowest affinity to EHG, while Esperstedt_MN has the highest, which may account for the variance in the level of Yamnaya/EHG introgression detected in the Irish Bronze depending on the MN/CA member used. Interestingly, no significant WHG gene flow into the Irish Bronze age was seen to the exclusion of MN/CA groups, with the reverse appearing to be the case for a majority combinations. This demonstrates that the increased affinity to Eastern Hunter Gatherer and Yamnaya ancestry in the Irish Bronze Age is not likely the result of more local hunter gatherer admixture."

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     rms2 (01-09-2016)

  3. #552
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rohlfsen View Post
    The only problem is that the Irish MN is much closer to Spanish than German MN. So, if there is Irish MN ancestry in Rathlin, it could give a false positive towards Spain. IBD/IBS is probably better to decide this.
    Without a doubt.
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  4. #553
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    This is the section that says that the Rathlin samples while having Middle Neolithic ancestry don't appear to have this ancestry from the same source as Ballynahatty.

    However, the Irish Bronze Age showed no significant introgression from Ballynahatty when placed in a clade with continental LN/BA populations (D(Mbuti, Ballynahatty; Irish Bronze Age, Continental LN/BA)), with results actually suggesting higher correlation between Ballynahatty and certain continental samples, most significantly the Hungarian Bronze Age (|Z| = 1.909 - 2.881). A similar result was obtained when Ballynahatty was replaced with the Scandinavian Middle Neolithic Gok2. However, when Spanish_MN or Esperstedt_MN took Ballynahatty’s place significant introgression into continental LN/BA populations to the exclusion of the Irish Bronze Individuals was seen, with the notable exception of the Nordic LN. This indicates that while the Irish Bronze Age contains a substantial amount of Middle Neolithic ancestry we find no strong evidence to suggest that the Irish population from which Ballynahatty came was its source. It is also not likely to be identical to the component of Middle Neolithic ancestry found in German LN/BA samples, or indeed any continental LN/BA so far sampled.

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     Agamemnon (01-09-2016),  Chad Rohlfsen (01-09-2016),  rms2 (01-09-2016)

  6. #554
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rohlfsen View Post
    Here's something, but I'm looking for more...

    "Of all Neolithic samples tested, Rathlin2 shares it's highest affinity with Cardial_EN, Rathlin3 with Spanish_MN, and Rathlin1 with the Scandinavian Middle Neolithic Gok2."
    That makes sense for Rathlin3, because it is about 300 years younger than the other two and had more time to absorb some Irish Neolithic ancestry.

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  8. #555
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Wasn't that one of the results from Cassidy et al, i.e., that the Rathlin Bronze Age males do not appear to be related to the Irish Neolithic female from Ballynahatty? Wasn't one of the conclusions of the paper that the Rathlin males picked up their ENF from central Europe rather than Ireland?
    Indeed, and it would be valuable to have data to disprove the Iberian Copper Age link either way... as you are well aware, there are those that still talk up the Iberian refugium as the birthplace of all of Western Europe as fact.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  10. #556
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    "Neolithic Origins. D and f statistics (29, 30) (Dataset S1 and SI
    Appendix, Section S12) support identification of Ballynahatty
    with other MN samples who show a majority ancestry from Near
    Eastern migration but with some western Mesolithic introgression.
    Outgroup f3 statistics indicated that Ballynahatty shared most
    genetic drift with other Neolithic samples with maximum scores
    observed for Spanish Middle, Epicardial, and Cardial Neolithic
    populations
    , and the Scandinavian individual Gok2 (SI Appendix,
    Section S12.1). D statistics confirmed these affinities. Interestingly,
    both the Spanish MN individuals and Gok2 also belong to Megalithic
    passage tomb cultures."

    Bronze Age Replacement. Prior studies (7, 9, 10) convincingly demonstrate
    that Central European genomes from the late Neolithic
    and Early Bronze Age differ from the preceding MN due to a
    substantial introgression originating with Steppe herders linked to
    cultures such as the Yamnaya
    . Accordingly, we used a series of tests
    to gauge whether the ancestries of the Rathlin Early Bronze Age
    genomes were subject to this influence. D statistics confirmed that
    Ballynahatty and other MN individuals form clades with each other
    to the exclusion of these Irish Bronze Age samples.

    From 14-33% of the Rathlin males component analysis were Yamna, the remainder 67-86% was Neolithic.

    If as suggested in this paper, there is strong continuity between EBA Ireland 4,000 years ago and modern populations then it will make the publication of the Irish DNA Atlas expected early this year all the more interesting.
    Last edited by Heber; 01-09-2016 at 05:31 PM. Reason: IDA
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  12. #557
    yes its was

  13. #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Mc View Post
    Hi northkerry. I still wouldn't lean towards an Irish origin for DF21. It seems more likely that it originated on the Continent or (perhaps) in Britain,
    Some people never give up in their quest for a DF21 continental origin, by the way I was THE ONLY PERSON THAT PREDICTED THAT DF21 WAS IN IRELAND FOR OVER 4000 YEARS and I have been pressing this argument for a very long time despite incessant ridicule on various forums by so called experts and likewise with S5488 I predicted that it was nearly as old as DF21 and sure enough Rathlin 2 tested positive for this SNP, you see if people just used simple basics like comparing the Genetic distances of people from the same subclades then answers are to be found instead of pursuing personal agendas which in most cases are simply wishful thinking on their part
    Last edited by oneillabu; 01-09-2016 at 06:04 PM.

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  15. #559
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krefter View Post
    Unless Irish/British have significant Neolithic local ancestry it is unlikely. There's a basic European look that Irish/British have. It clearly formed in Late Neolithic Central Europe as a result of a mixture of "Steppe" and "MN". Plenty have Dark complexion that don't fit the stero-types, and that isn't because of admixture with other people, it's normal variation.
    No doubt you understand the genetics better than me but I still don't understand why a particular phenotype couldn't have survived from the Isles Neolithic to the present day, even despite all the migrations to the Isles since the Neolithic?

    Ballynahatty had dark hair and brown eyes. Rathlin 1 may have had blue eyes and a lighter hair colour. Obviously we need further ancient DNA from the Isles but let's assume for the sake of argument that the Neolithic inhabitants of the Isles were largely dark haired and brown eyed and that the Indo-Europeans/BBs/Celts introduced lighter pigmentation to the Isles.

    So, if as appears to be the case, the Indo-Europeans largely replaced the Neolithic people in the Isles, but did not wipe them out, then a small amount of local Neolithic genes (maybe 5-10%) were absorbed by the IEs/Celts and hence the darker phenotype may have quickly become a a minority phenotype but has been able to persist ever since, albeit at low levels. Obviously a lot has happened in the Isles since the Neolithic but to my mind, this is one explanation.

  16. #560
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Wasn't that one of the results from Cassidy et al, i.e., that the Rathlin Bronze Age males do not appear to be related to the Irish Neolithic female from Ballynahatty? Wasn't one of the conclusions of the paper that the Rathlin males picked up their ENF from central Europe rather than Ireland?
    that my understanding to so the dark look in some Irish comes from central Europe also there is no room for extra EEF if you compare the BA irish with BA germany

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