ancient J1b-F4306(xZS80) Satsurblia Late Upper Palaeolithic Caucasus

[ChrisR]

I was able to extract the Y-chr BAM file for 13300 ybp Late Upper Palaeolithic Caucasus (Satsurblia cave, Western Georgia, sample SATP) in Jones et al 2015.
The data is low-coverage: when calls exist there are mostly only 1-3 reads (BAM Y-chr file 11 Mb).
Satsurblia is a full developed J (97 J-SNPs checked, 49 positive, 48 have no-calls), negative for J2 (21 SNPs checked, 12 negative, 9 no-calls) so I went on to do a quick check for J1.
J1 positive for: L255 (14937880 A->C), CTS426/PF4641/YSC307 (6745512 C->T), CTS10759 (22761824 G->A), CTS11188/PF4784 (22997977 G->T), CTS11636/PF4785 (23200045 T->C)
J1b positive for: CTS6101/PF3543 (16674560 G->A), F4306 (21492032 G->T), FGC20301/Y6337/ZS3624 (24468458 A->G), FGC20303/Y6336/ZS3620 (23650760 A->G),
J1b negative for: CTS3219/ZS80 (14738001 G->A),
So possibly this is
a) the ancestor (or a near relative of him) of all J1b-F4306 men
b) a split leading to an extinct J1b-F4306(xZS80) branch

YFull YTree v3.17 time estimates seem to support hypothesis a) with J1b formed 18400 ybp, TMRCA 10600 ybp.
J1b has Finnish (272108/YF02055), Irish (211228), Colombian (HG01253, HG01256) and an unknown origin (422638) NGS samples.
Sources: http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y6304/ http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree

Even more interesting now to which J subclade the 5500-5000 BC Karelian-Finno Ugric hunter gatherer near Finland (EHG, Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov, Karelia, sample I0211/UzOO40) in Mathieson et al 2015 belongs to.

[royking]

Yay! Excellent work ChrisR. Looks like Georgia was a refugium for J1. If the NE Caucasian languages covary with other J1s, then maybe we have an aboriginal NE Caucasian language group in Late UP Georgia!

[Gravetto-Danubian]

Yay! Excellent work ChrisR. Looks like Georgia was a refugium for J1. If the NE Caucasian languages covary with other J1s, then maybe we have an aboriginal NE Caucasian language group in Late UP Georgia!

Roy
Georgia might not have been a refugium for anything, because the South Caucasus region appears to lack any discernable settlements during the peak glacial period (22-18). This suggests that the J guys came from further south - ? Northern Mesopotamia. But it's difficult to tell - the Palaeolithic in the Levant and mid east is poorly researched

[paulgill]

Roy
Georgia might not have been a refugium for anything, because the South Caucasus region appears to lack any discernable settlements during the peak glacial period (22-18). This suggests that the J guys came from further south - ? Northern Mesopotamia. But it's difficult to tell - the Palaeolithic in the Levant and mid east is poorly researched

From within the Black Sea, Caspian Sea, Van lake and Lake Urmia area.

[Gravetto-Danubian]

From within the Black Sea, Caspian Sea, Van lake and Lake Urmia area.

Any papers on that ?

[Krefter]

It's important to remember the J1 and J2a in CHG belong to rare subclades.

[paulgill]

Any papers on that ?

No papers, but why the papers only, how many papers have stood the test of time to date? I am J1-Z1853* it has many branches, but, the only its one branch L862+ is mainly found in the Arabian peninsula, mine is found in India and carries with it suname Khabra, which I believe have its roots in Eber[Heber], Hebrew or Khabur Rivers, and it certainly is an ancient surname that have survived to this day. Please look under 004. J-Z1853 Cluster, at https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults.

I had proposed this to some scholars on the Armenian face book page, while they agreed but suggested it to be more to the east part of that area, closer to the Caspian Sea, but I was suggesting it to be closer to the eastern south shore of the Black sea. In the end it is only an opinion, but this paper is certainly written in the blood of Khabra Jatts.

[bicicleur]

Roy
Georgia might not have been a refugium for anything, because the South Caucasus region appears to lack any discernable settlements during the peak glacial period (22-18). This suggests that the J guys came from further south - ? Northern Mesopotamia. But it's difficult to tell - the Palaeolithic in the Levant and mid east is poorly researched

these guys came from north of the Black Sea, which was the LGM refugium for the Eastern Epi-Gravettians
17 ka some Eastern Epi-Gravettians crossed the Caucasus or came along the eastern shores of the Black Sea

[Romilius]

It's important to remember the J1 and J2a in CHG belong to rare subclades.

Of course, but I think that the one million dollar question is: "Are they ancestral to contemporary people that carry those signatures?".

[Gravetto-Danubian]

these guys came from north of the Black Sea, which was the LGM refugium for the Eastern Epi-Gravettians
17 ka some Eastern Epi-Gravettians crossed the Caucasus or came along the eastern shores of the Black Sea

Maybe they did, around Moldavia and western Ukraine showed continuity during the LGM (but not further north or east - in Russia).
I'd have thought eastern Epigravettians were some form of I2 and C, but who knows ?