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Thread: The Ossetian question

  1. #1

    The Ossetian question

    They are a confusing peple genetically. They speak an Iranian language and carry a Northern European component but have almost no R1a. They somehow also have significant East Eurasian segments. North Ossetians are closer to North Caucasians but South Ossetians are closer to South Caucasians. Both are more similar to Iranians in terms of mtdna and a parternal admixture from parts of the Cacuasus hasbeen suggested but they carry Ydna G clades restricted often to themselves(plus they should have had some Caucasian ydnas to begin with as they are Iranian speakers in the Caucasus). Plus they have M269 clades matching Iranians. What explains all this?

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    I am aware of their Y-DNA frequencies and the Yunusbayev(?) study which found a G2a subclade belonging almost exclusively to them. I am unaware of their R1b1a2-M269 STR's matching Iranians. If you know of the data purporting this, would you kindly share them?

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    Huge areas acquired the Turkish language without getting much Turkic yDNA, mtDNA, or autosomal DNA.

    Think of this as happening "the other way": the maternal language was retained, though the male genetic lines were possibly crowded out by an outside source. Being in the mountains, the effect is magnified.

    East Eurasian components are not exactly rare in this area, either, and can be found quite a way to the west (to around the Balkans) and to the south (Near East/Middle East). I myself have a little of this as does my father, and we have no ancestry from anywhere east of a line from the Baltic to the Syrian/Turkish border in the last 200 years or so, though we do have one or two more-distant genetic cousins from Kazakhstan.
     

    Other ancestral Y lines:

    E1b-M81 Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    E1b-V13 England
    I1-M253 Ireland
    I2-M423 Ukraine
    R1a-L176.1 Scotland
    R1b-L584 Syria/Turkey (Sephardi)
    R1b-L20 Ireland
    R1b-L21 (1)England; (2)Wales?>Connecticut
    R1b-L48 England
    R1b-P312 Scotland
    R1b-FGC32576 Ireland

    Other ancestral mtDNA lines:

    H1b2a Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    H6a1a3 Ukraine
    K1a9 Belarus (Ashkenazi)
    K1c2 Ireland
    V7a Ukraine

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    Lurs, Talysh, [Syunik-Karabakh region] Ossetians. All these are areas are of ancient Iranian and old Armenian history. R1b is Z2105 brother branch of L51 although tentative pending further updates. It is premature to link all these groups, however there are pockets of both R1b Z2105 L277+/L584+ and L277-/L584-, in the above tribes/ peoples /regions.

  8. #5
    Are maybe Osssetians not real Ossetians? I know Timerlane destroyed Alania and maybe Ossetians are just descended from a few of the survivors. I have seen this explanation to explain why Northern European admixture is higher in Kurdistan than Iran (because the R1a, northern Euro R1a warrior caste/groups in Persia suffered the most from the invasions).

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    Iron and Digor language placement. How do you reconcile the following two diagrams?


    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ection=results

    Z283 and Z93 split around 5500 ybp, Wiki and the above language diagram has an almost 2000 year difference in the split of Balto-Slavic language." Avestan and Vedic Sanskrit show break up around 5000The history of the Slavic languages stretches over 3,000 years, from the point at which the ancestral Proto-Balto-Slavic language broke up"
    Last edited by Silesian; 03-04-2013 at 02:42 AM.

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    I hesitate to insert myself into this discussion as I am no authority on the subject but think it might be germane to the discussion to add that according to Jack Weatherford in his Secret History of the Mongol Queens, there was a significant presence of Ossetian mercenaries at the court of Kublai Khan. These were expelled after the fall of the Yuan Dynasty in 1368. Remnants of them are recorded in Mongolia in the years afterward. Perhaps some of them made back to the Caucasus bringing with them their mixed-race children. Perhaps this accounts for the East Eurasian DNA sequences in modern-day Ossetians. Just a thought...

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    @ Silesian

    Looks like the language diagram comes from non-linguists - perhaps one of the more clueless computer models? Specialists in Indo-European linguistics set the date of PIE no earlier than 4000 BC. The chronology of the diagram being elongated makes a mess of the older language splits.

    I see nothing wrong with the placement or chronology of Ironian and Digorian though. Balanovsky 2011 gives a timeline for languages of the North Caucasus and Y-DNA, using Starostin’s glottochronology. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...373/figure/F6/

    For other dates using from Starostin’s method, see Blažek : On the internal classification of Indo-European languages: survey. He gives a date of about 1200 BC for the break-up of Balto-Slavic (essentially from Baltic breaking away from the core).
    Last edited by Jean M; 03-04-2013 at 04:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    @ Silesian

    Looks like the language diagram comes from non-linguists - perhaps one of the more clueless computer models....
    Okay lets go with this theme.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    I see nothing wrong with the placement or chronology of Ironian and Digorian though. Balanovsky 2011 gives a timeline for languages of the North Caucasus and Y-DNA, using Starostin’s glottochronology.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...373/figure/F6/

    "We analyzed 40 SNP and 19 STR Y-chromosomal markers in a large sample of 1,525 indigenous individuals from 14 populations in the Caucasus and 254 additional individuals representing potential source populations"http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3355373/

    You are assigning a certain theoretical ydna with a language? You are using a computer model in theoretical mutation rates of str's, and assigning that to a theoretical ydna associated with a particular language? How is that different than using a computer model to simulate the branches and times of the languages?


    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    For other dates using from Starostin’s method, see Blažek : On the internal classification of Indo-European languages: survey. He gives a date of about 1200 BC for the break-up of Balto-Slavic (essentially from Baltic breaking away from the core).

    Has J.P. Mallory produced anything resembling the language diagram produced by a computer and "non-linguists" I would really like to compare his work with the one I linked.
    Last edited by Silesian; 03-04-2013 at 05:08 PM.

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    Mallory is not noted as a tree-constructor. I suppose he may have produced one somewhere, but if so, I can't call it to mind. I did link to Blažek, who gives dated trees for IE and its branches. Otherwise there is Nakhleh, Ringe and Warnow 2005 for the main branches. Here's one from me, based on theirs. Click to enlarge.

    Diagram7.JPG
    Last edited by AJL; 03-04-2013 at 06:39 PM. Reason: typo

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