Page 58 of 71 FirstFirst ... 848565758596068 ... LastLast
Results 571 to 580 of 707

Thread: Volga Steppe Khvalynsk culture (Copper Age) from 5200-4000 BC, R1a and R1b together!

  1. #571
    Legacy Account
    Posts
    7,362
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Nationality
    British
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    United Kingdom
    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    What is the latest chronology for Dnieper Donets II - I fear to comment as RC dating of many cultures has been so much in revision of late.
    It is much earlier than the Middle Dnieper. I was just painting in the background, before delving into Anthony for the origins of same (which I added to my post). The dates we have for the DD II aDNA are on http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/eur...ithicdna.shtml

    [Added] Anthony gives the earliest dates for the Middle Dnieper culture as 2800-2600 BC and points to the links with CW.
    Last edited by Jean M; 12-06-2015 at 11:29 PM.

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Jean M For This Useful Post:

     alan (12-07-2015),  Hando (12-07-2015)

  3. #572
    Banned
    Posts
    4,169
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    N/A
    Nationality
    N/A
    Y-DNA (P)
    I2a1-L621- PH 908
    mtDNA (M)
    H 47

    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    The CHG could tie into the linkages that Rassamakin sees between C-T and the Caucasus as well as other complex contacts with the steppes. I dont see R1a as actually a C-T or Caucasus lineage though. There must be a steppe or steppe-edge element in that zone in NW Ukraine. I still dont understand the origins or chronology of Middle Dnieper culture which on paper you would think could be linked to R1a.
    Yeah same I certainly don't see R1a as 'Caucasian' lineage, but a north Eurasian one which probably extended from the Baltic to Central Asia already in the Eneolithic

    As for dates; I've given up trying to tie in any specifics. I'm just going to go with the flow and see what keeps coming through

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Gravetto-Danubian For This Useful Post:

     Hando (12-07-2015),  Jean M (12-07-2015)

  5. #573
    Registered Users
    Posts
    984
    Sex
    Location
    EU
    Ethnicity
    Finnish
    Y-DNA (P)
    Father N1c
    mtDNA (M)
    I5a

    By the way, J-Z2433 which looks like having an exclusively Indian distribution is formed, accordingto yfull, 7100 ybp and its TMRCA is 6000 ybp. That could fit with the introduction of Dravidian languages to India, although I do not know if it matches with archaeology and for example Indus Valley Culture.

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to Kristiina For This Useful Post:

     Hando (12-08-2015)

  7. #574
    Legacy Account
    Posts
    7,362
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Nationality
    British
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    United Kingdom
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    By the way, J-Z2433 which looks like having an exclusively Indian distribution is formed, according to yfull, 7100 ybp and its TMRCA is 6000 ybp. That could fit with the introduction of Dravidian languages to India, although I do not know if it matches with archaeology and for example Indus Valley Culture.
    The idea that Y-DNA J arrived in South Asia with farming from the Near East has been proposed by a number of people, including me in Ancestral Journeys (2013) and last year on this thread, where you will find a lot of discussion of migrations into India: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post58140

    The idea that the people of the Indus Valley Civilization spoke Dravidian has been popular, along with the idea that this language family is related to Elamite. However the latter proposal has been dismissed, and it seems more likely that the language of the IVC was lost and appears now only as borrowings into Indic. Again there is much on this topic, with references, in the thread to which I linked.

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to Jean M For This Useful Post:

     Hando (12-08-2015)

  9. #575
    Registered Users
    Posts
    984
    Sex
    Location
    EU
    Ethnicity
    Finnish
    Y-DNA (P)
    Father N1c
    mtDNA (M)
    I5a

    Jean, from where and which time frame and with which yDNA do you think that Dravidian languages arrived to India.

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to Kristiina For This Useful Post:

     Hando (12-08-2015)

  11. #576
    Legacy Account
    Posts
    7,362
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Nationality
    British
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    United Kingdom
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    Jean, from where and which time frame and with which yDNA do you think that Dravidian languages arrived to India.
    This is discussed on the thread to which I linked. It would be helpful to keep discussion of Dravidian to a thread specific to it or South Asia in general, so that people interested in that topic can respond. There are a number of forum members from South Asia.
    Last edited by Jean M; 12-07-2015 at 04:13 PM.

  12. #577
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,815
    Sex
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-L1280>FGC41205
    mtDNA (M)
    H2a2(b)
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a-L1029>YP517
    mtDNA (P)
    H5a2

    Poland European Union
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Wasn't my suspicion. I just cited a paper. Łukasz Pospieszny, Freshwater reservoir effect and the radiocarbon chronology of the cemetery in Ząbie, Poland, http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...05440314003823
    Right, but what I had in mind was that you suspected that this single finding can be extended to all CWC samples from the entire South-East Baltic region.

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to Michał For This Useful Post:

     Hando (12-08-2015)

  14. #578
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    8,749

    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    These branches are beyond my niche, but if I may comment: in light of Michal's 'adjusted age' scheme which suggests adding 20% to YFull estimates, then the age of Z645 come up to 6, 600 Y BP, that is 4600 BCE.

    Now, wherever Z645 'was born", it might have expanded somewhat later - after this clan had accrued enough men to expand. But this still leaves us some 2, 000 years before the Sintashta-originated "Indo-Aryan migrations" for Z645's presence in the Indus region.
    Blasphemous I know, but there you go.

    ...
    I think YFull is an underestimate by about 10%. I would go with about 6000 ybp for the CTS4385 branch split, 5500 ybp for Z645, 5280 for Z94, 4290 for L657. These look like reasonable fits for Indo-German, Indo-Slavic, Indo-Iranian, and Indo-Aryan respectively.

    My thinking used to be that M417 was born close to the English Channel/North Sea based on the modern distribution of CTS4385. But ancient DNA is showing that CTS4385 arrived in central Europe in the same time-frame as Z283. As Z645 is nested somewhere within 8 SNPs between the CTS4385 split and Z283+Z93, I would locate Z645's origin near the western Khazar steppe. Northern Iran is a possibility too, but I discounted that possibility since we are not seeing R1a1 in the Bronze age south of the Caucasus.

  15. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to parasar For This Useful Post:

     Hando (12-08-2015),  Michał (12-07-2015)

  16. #579
    Legacy Account
    Posts
    7,362
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Nationality
    British
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    United Kingdom
    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    Right, but what I had in mind was that you suspected that this single finding can be extended to all CWC samples from the entire South-East Baltic region.
    Did I? My memory is not as good as yours. I don't even recall other samples from the region. Was this in a discussion of Wencel 2015? I see that I have a note that his dates conflict with those in other sources on Corded Ware.

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to Jean M For This Useful Post:

     Hando (12-08-2015)

  18. #580
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,815
    Sex
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-L1280>FGC41205
    mtDNA (M)
    H2a2(b)
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a-L1029>YP517
    mtDNA (P)
    H5a2

    Poland European Union
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    It is much earlier than the Middle Dnieper. I was just painting in the background, before delving into Anthony for the origins of same (which I added to my post). The dates we have for the DD II aDNA are on http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/eur...ithicdna.shtml
    It should be noted that while most of DD II was replaced by Sredny Stog (or somehow transformed into this new entity), there was a small subgroup of DD II that avoided this replacement/transformation by migrating north towards the forest zone. This group is known as Dnieper-Donets III (sometimes referred to as one of the Prick-Comb Pottery cultures, a term that includes also the neighbouring Upper Dnieper Culture). Intriguingly, DD III was located more or less where Middle-Dnieper culture later arose, and since the Early MDC follows the Late DD III, one may suspect that DD III was ancestral to MDC (and CWC?), with the neighbouring steppe culture(s) also contributing to this transformation.

    Here is what Szmyt (2010) writes about DD III:
    The Dnieper-Donets culture formed the major component of the discussed cultural circle. The territory which was occupied by that culture covered, at a maximum, the whole Dnieper area, part of Volhynia and Polesie [Telegin 1985b:157-165; Isayenka 1997]. Within the broadly conceived Dnieper-Donets culture, separate regional varieties are identified [e.g. Isayenka 1997]. Its chronology stretches from the beginning of the 5th millennium BC until the end of the 4th [decline of the 5th millennium bc — middle of the 3rd — Telegin 1985b:171]. The culture originated in the forest-steppe on the Dnieper, while in the Forest zone its settlement appeared later. The course of its development is conventionally divided into three stages [Telegin 1985b] of which the most important for the issues discussed here is the third. The Dnieper-Donets culture settlement of this stage in the northern (forest) part of the Middle Dnieper region could have survived until the turn of 4th millennium BC (until the middle of the 3rd millennium bc — Telegin 1985b:171]. Only in eastern Polesie was a fourth stage of the culture distinguished and dated roughly to (without 14C dates) to the 1st half of the 3rd millennium BC [from the middle of the 3rd until the first centuries of the 2nd millennium bc — Isayenka 1976:112-113]. The sites of the Dnieper-Donets culture from its decline period, as defined here, were identified on Lake Vyachera, where dispersed GAC traces occur as well [Kryvaltsevich 1999:23-24]. Unfortunately, the hypothetical late settlement of the Prick-Comb culture has not been borne out by radiocarbon dating yet.
    Last edited by Michał; 12-07-2015 at 04:22 PM.

  19. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Michał For This Useful Post:

     George (04-16-2017),  Hando (12-08-2015),  palamede (12-10-2015),  Ryukendo (04-13-2017)

Page 58 of 71 FirstFirst ... 848565758596068 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 242
    Last Post: 12-10-2020, 05:51 AM
  2. What culture today has preserved indo European steppe culture most?
    By Censored in forum General Sociology/Ethnology
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 11-02-2020, 06:41 PM
  3. Yamnaya-Like Khvalynsk Y-DNA J1
    By RCO in forum J1-M267
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 12-27-2019, 09:10 PM
  4. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 02-17-2019, 08:54 AM
  5. Ick...toads as a snack? tough times 4000 yrs ago
    By MikeWhalen in forum History (Ancient)
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 09-30-2017, 08:53 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •