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Thread: Y-Haplogroup J found in Karelian Eastern Hunter-Gatherer

  1. #81
    I had a look at his BAM. Unfortunately, it's of really poor quality. and all we know is he's positive for several M267 approximates and negative for YSC65 and no-calls for F4306 and F1614 and their approximates.

    Code:
    CTS1138		+
    CTS3210		+
    CTS7412		+
    YSC0001267	+
    YSC0001262	+
    YSC0000065	-
    ZS127		-
    ZS3573		-
    ZS3601		-
    ZS9577		-
    ZS9579		-
    ZS9580		-
    Last edited by victar; 11-28-2015 at 12:43 AM.

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  3. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by victar View Post
    I had a look at his BAM. Unfortunately, it's of really poor quality. and all we know is he's positive for several M267 approximates and negative for YSC65 and no-calls for F4306 and F1614 and their approximates.

    Code:
    CTS1138		+
    CTS3210		+
    CTS7412		+
    YSC0001267	+
    YSC0001262	+
    YSC0000065	-
    ZS127		-
    ZS3573		-
    ZS3601		-
    ZS9577		-
    ZS9579		-
    ZS9580		-
    Very interesting, and my WGS files are ready for you to update the J1 Tree. I have not downloaded them yet though.

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  5. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by victar View Post
    I had a look at his BAM. Unfortunately, it's of really poor quality. and all we know is he's positive for several M267 approximates and negative for YSC65 and no-calls for F4306 and F1614 and their approximates.

    Code:
    CTS1138		+
    CTS3210		+
    CTS7412		+
    YSC0001267	+
    YSC0001262	+
    YSC0000065	-
    ZS127		-
    ZS3573		-
    ZS3601		-
    ZS9577		-
    ZS9579		-
    ZS9580		-
    Fascinating stuff, this sample being negative for YSC65 is quite telling IMO. It's unfortunate that F4306 and F1614 are no calls. I'd say this certainly suggests that the Caucasus was a J1 diversity hotspot, if not J1's homeland itself.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 11-28-2015 at 02:24 AM.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  7. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I'd say this certainly suggests that the Caucasus was a J1 diversity hotspot, if not J1's homeland itself.
    Just because we find J1 spread to these places, it doesn't mean J1 originated there. We already long theorized that J1 was mostly likely spread into Europe through the expansion of Neolithic farming, so these results are completely consistent with that narrative, which is also supported by the Jones et al. paper.
    Last edited by victar; 11-28-2015 at 07:34 AM.

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  9. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by victar View Post
    Just because we find J1 spread to these places, it doesn't mean J1 originated there. We already long theorized that J1 was mostly likely spread into Europe through the expansion of Neolithic farming, so these results are completely consistent with that narrative, which is also supported by the Jones et al. paper.
    I fail to see how the complete absence of J1 in all Neolithic remains to date as well as its presence in EHG and CHG samples is consistent with this narrative, if anything it does a big disfavour to this theory.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by victar View Post
    Just because we find J1 spread to these places, it doesn't mean J1 originated there. We already long theorized that J1 was mostly likely spread into Europe through the expansion of Neolithic farming, so these results are completely consistent with that narrative, which is also supported by the Jones et al. paper.
    What? How is the finding of Y-DNA haplogroup J1 among an Upper Paleolithic man from the Caucasus and a Mesolithic man from Karelia consistent with J1 coming to Europe with Neolithic farmers? Not one J1 has shown up in any Neolithic remains yet.

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  13. #87
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    I think most of the European J1 is historical and related to historical migrations and wars in Europe arriving after the Iron Age or even after the Roman Empire. There's no homogeneity in the European J1 branches and the gaps can only be understood in reference to the J1 original lands because the European J1 clusters usually match more closely similar Near Eastern J1 branches than other European J1 clusters. No J1 was never found in any European Neolithic site and even in the Mediterranean areas possibly associated to Late Neolithic movements like the Sardinian J1 is always a local or regional cluster not found spreaded in other distant European regions because no Western European J1 has a deep chronology in Europe demonstrating an ancient presence there like the Karelian Mesolithic or the Caucasian CHG and the living Finn J1 individual as revealed in the last articles files only because the authors couldn't assume or could write about the major breakthrough of the ancient J1 remains and sequences in the texts for incompetence or other hidden interests. The Near Eastern differences between Northern Near Eastern basal types of J1 of Caucasian, Iranian, Anatolian, Armenian and Byzantine origins also can offer a big contrast with downstream derived P58 and subsequent downstream SNPs with origins associated to Southern Near Eastern, Levantine and Semitic origins in Europe like Phoenicians, Jews or Arabs depending on the phylogenetic positions in the J1 tree already found and occupied by J1 in Western Asia.
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  15. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I fail to see how the complete absence of J1 in all Neolithic remains to date as well as its presence in EHG and CHG samples is consistent with this narrative, if anything it does a big disfavour to this theory.
    You're welcome to your own theories, but I recommend you read the paper I cited.

  16. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by victar View Post
    You're welcome to your own theories, but I recommend you read the paper I cited.
    Anyone who has read the paper will understand that he has very little to do with European Neolithic.

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  18. #90
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    the karelia j1 show that some j1 members cross the caucasus mountains deep into
    the north and less to the west like there j2 cousins.
    just some thoughts thats why it wasn't discover yet in neolithic farmers remain
    but maybe in the futuer it will.
    adam

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