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Thread: The possible untidy history of how R-Z142 got to Britain

  1. #1
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    The possible untidy history of how R-Z142 got to Britain

    “The truth is sometimes more complicated than it appears
    - Unknown”
    If asked to explain the unknown, people prefer clean, simple, and uncluttered stories that are easy to follow. However, the actual story is often the opposite. I wrote the following fictionalized account to illustrate how untidy the actual story may be.


    Approximately 4500 years ago somewhere in the upper Rhine River basin a man named Z142 was born. He was a direct descendant of the infamous U152 via his son L2, and grandson, Z49.

    Z142 was a wealthy man of high social standing in the Central Bell Beaker Group and had many children including at least three sons:
    1. L562 aka Z51, Z55
    2. Z150 aka Z12222, Z26720
    3. FGC22963, aka FGC22940 FGC22942, FGC22948, , FGC22968, S23458

    These sons and their children spent their lives near Z142, but we know their descendants ended up all over Western and Central Europe including, Spain, Italy, France, Switzerland, Hungary, Germany, and the British Isles. I will focus on how Z142’s descendants arrived in Britain.

    Some of L562’s, Z150’s, and FGC22963’s descendants traveled south and west into present day, Switzerland, Italy, southern France, and Spain. Others traveled down the Rhine River and settled in Germany and the Low Countries near the mouth of the river. This later group became part of the Lower Rhine Bell Beaker Group which also included descendants of L21.

    From there they spread into northern France/Gaul, while other’s traveled into present day Denmark from Germany. Still others traveled across the sea to Britain. This later group was the first wave of Z142’s family to make it to Britain.

    A millennium later the Urnfield Culture begat another group of Z142 descendants that went to Britain from the Low Countries and Northern France. The Hallstatt culture succeeded the Urnfield Culture and brought additional Z142 descendants to Britain 2800 years ago. La Tene immigrants brought even more Z142 descendants to Britain 2500 years ago.

    Some of the descendants of Z142 in the Low Countries and Germany became part of the Belgae tribe that immigrated to Britain 2200 years ago. As Roman forces advanced into Gaul over two thousand years ago, Z142 descendants crossed the English Channel to escape Roman occupation…at least temporarily.

    A few decades later, Roman Legions that included Z142 men from Batavian and Tungri tribes in present day the Netherlands and Belgium as well as tribes from northern Gaul brought forth another migration of Z142 men to Britain. Also, Z142 descendants that traveled south into Italy and Spain a thousand years earlier, entered Britain during this period as Roman citizens and soldiers.

    About 300 years later (1600 years ago), descendants of Z142 that settled in Northern Germany, Denmark, and the Netherlands began to arrive in Britain with the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Franks, and Frisians. Four hundred years later additional Danish Z142 men (again a small minority of the total men involved), arrived in Britain with the Viking raids and the establishment of Danelaw.

    Less than 1000 ago more Z142 descendants from Northern France and Flanders arrived with the Normans and Flemish forces accompanying William the Conqueror.

    In the last 500 years additional Z142 descendants that stayed close to Z142’s birthplace arrived in Britain via Palatinate Germans, Huguenots, Flemish immigrants, and other sources in Western and Central Europe.
    While this fictitious story isn't tidy, it might be closer to the truth than attempting to assign Z142’s arrival to a specific group or groups.

    The question is: Which of these various migrations were the source(s) for the majority Z142 in Britain today? Based on the currently available evidence I don’t think anyone can say.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 07-19-2015 at 01:31 AM.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
    Hidden Content

  2. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to MitchellSince1893 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (07-19-2015),  cal (07-21-2015),  JACK (08-07-2015),  kinman (07-19-2015),  ML Hill 6342 (04-20-2016),  MT1976 (07-23-2015),  Pigmon (07-19-2015)

  3. #2
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    I like your story. I agree that noone can say based on the currently available evidence. But if more evidence can be found to support the "Kinman Hypothesis", I still believe that the majority of the R-Z142 men migrated to England during the Norman Invasion in 1066. And if more evidence shows a strong concentration of R-Z142 families localised in Buckinghamshire after the Norman Invasion, that would indicate to me that any earlier migrations were just a trickle in comparison. And that trickle would presumably be widely scattered, not concentrated west of London in Buckinghamshire. Therefore, it could very well be a very quick infusion in England of the relatives and men who accompanied Sir Richard de Perrott from Brittany (where one would expect to find more Celts than in neighboring Normandy). In any case, I just hope this hypothesis will encourage R-Z142 descendants to at least look more carefully at Buckinghamshire for their possible roots (which might otherwise remain unknown). Only time will tell whether the story is as tidy as I think it might be.
    -------------Ken Kinman

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     cal (07-21-2015),  MitchellSince1893 (07-19-2015),  Pigmon (07-19-2015)

  5. #3
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    Well, although the Buckinghamshire area still seems to be a hotspot for R-FGC22963 (R-S18325), it does not seem to be a hotspot for the other two subclades of R-Z142 (which appear to be more scattered in England, as well as Scotland). So I am now going to concentrate instead on the timing (when members of R-Z142 came to England). It still looks like most probably came from northwestern France with William the Conqueror, but I guess I won't know until I compile two lists: (1) those that probably did accompany Willilam the Conqueror, and (2) those who came to England earlier (with the Anglo-Saxons or the Romans or possibly even earlier). So, although I did not find much tidiness in where most of them settled (geographically) in England, I still believe there will be some measure of tidiness about when. We shall see.

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     cal (07-21-2015),  MitchellSince1893 (07-21-2015)

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    THANK YOU MITCHELL ; YOU HAVE BEEN VERY HELPFUL . A SIMPLE ANSWER TO A SIMPLE QUESTION . I DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT DNA . BUT I WILL HELP WHERE I CAN . I WILL BE IN AUSTRIA ,SWITZERLAND ,FRANCE ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND THIS FALL . MY DAUGHTER LIVES IN HENLEY ON THE THAMES . DADDY TIME WITH MY DAUGHTER . CAL

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     MitchellSince1893 (07-21-2015)

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    hi mitchell ; have you heard about the celtic prince site thay found in lavau france last oct . google it the site is big . i plan to go there this fall . i don't know if thay will let me in but i will visit and try . it is very interesting to be in the northern part of france .

  10. #6
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    Hi Cal,
    I hadn't heard about this Celtic Prince site at Lavau. However, my theory is that our ancestors left from the area in or near the Black Forest (southwest Baden, Germany) and migrated slowly westward to Birttany or Normandy. And Lavau is in between, on a direct line along this proposed migration route. Very exciting. I hope that you will be able to visit the site.

    The only thing that I am still uncertain about is how early this R-Z142 migration might have taken place. It could have taken place before, during, or even after Roman times. If it was during Roman times, their historical records could certainly be useful in determining what "tribe" in Gaul R-Z142 belonged to during that period. Perhaps Z142 (especially subclade FGC22963) DNA will turn up eventually in French burial mounds and indicate when they reached central France.
    ------------Ken

  11. #7
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    I think someone posted about this a while back. Look forward to the results of the excavation.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
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  12. #8
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    KEN - THANK YOU FOR THE RESPONSE . FOR ALL OF YOU DNA BUFFS OUT THERE I HAVE A QUESTION TO ASK . IS THERE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BIG Y AND FULL Y CHROM.. AND IS THERE A MORE ADVANCE TEST I COULD TAKE AT THIS TIME TO HELP US WITH THE DNA PROJECT .I KNOW MOST OF THE PEOPLE WHO MATCH ME ON MY 37 MARKER AND THEY ARE FROM MY GRANDFATHER RICHARD BUFFINGTON THAT CAME HERE IS 1675 . AND I KNOW MY GRANDPARENTS NAMES BACK TO 1450 . SO I DON'T THINK GOING HIGHER WILL HELP AT THIS TIME . I'M LOOKING FOR MY -Y- LINE BEFORE THEN . AS I AM SURE A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE . MY EARLIEST RECORDS TAKE MY BUFFINGTON LINE TO BUCKINGHAMSHIRE IN 1327 . THANK YOU EVERYBODY





























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