Szecsenyi-Nagy, "Neolithic population history in the western Carpathian Basin"

[nuadha]

rms2 I hope you're reading this. It Looks like the ancestor or close relative of Bell Beaker R1b was found in Hungary.

http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.co...d-are-r1b.html

Holy crap, I even had a glance at that paper but didn't think id find anything new. Wow

where is the source for the following quote?

It is noteworthy that the R1b occurred first after the Middle Chalcolithic in Transdanubia. (Late Chalcolithic has not been not examined yet, and so a hiatus remains between the Middle Chalcolithic and the Early Bronze Age data.) The two R1b samples are dated to the Vučedol period (~2,870-2,580 cal BC) and to the Gáta/Wieslburg culture (~1,950- 1,760 cal BC). R1b is the most frequent haplogroup in today’s Europe, with a frequency peak in Western Europe (Balaresque et al., 2010). From prehistoric context, this haplogroup is known from the Late Neolithic Central Germany (Bell Beaker culture, Lee et al., 2012). The theory that R1b reached Central Europe (and possibly the Carpathian Basin as well) with the Bell Beaker migration, starting from southwestern Europe (Brandt et al., 2014) seems to be collapsing, as R1b (M269) has recently been found in Yamnaya (3,300-2,700 cal BC) population on the Russian steppe as well (Haak et al., 2015).

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Holy crap, I even had a glance at that paper but didn't think id find anything new. Wow

where is the source for the following quote?

http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte...75/pdf/doc.pdf

That quote can be found on page 142.



Interesting that I2a2 was found only in the Bronze Age considering it was present in the latest Yamnaya results along with R1b. Also, the I1 in LBKT and the J2 in Lengyel and Sopot caught my eye.

[Humanist]

Anna Szecsenyi-Nagy thesis, 2015, Molecular genetic investigation of the Neolithic population history in the western Carpathian Basin

Screening all well-preserved samples, the Y-chromosomal haplogroups were defined in 33 Neolithic and Chalcolithic individuals.

The G and F haplogroups were not found in the Sopot dataset, but I2-I2a1 reappeared in the Late Neolithic, and three new haplogroups occurred in this cultures well: E1b1b1a1, J2and C. These three novel haplogroups were also present in the Lengyel dataset, besides the persisting Early Neolithic haplogroups, such as F* and G2a.

[nuadha]

http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte...75/pdf/doc.pdf

That quote can be found on page 142.



Interesting that I2a2 was found only in the Bronze Age considering it was present in the latest Yamnaya results along with R1b. Also, the I1 in LBKT and the J2 in Lengyel and Sopot caught my eye.

Thanks! I found it. Im still looking for the exact circumstances of the site they came from.

Anyways, these two r1b samples match the exact timing that yamnaya graves start showing up in hungary carrying isotopic signatures from the east, i.e. they were migrants from the east. Its just as important to point out the late neolithic burials prior to yamnaya appearance show local isotopic signatures.

Strontium and oxygen isotope analyses re- veal an earlier period of ‘local’ burials, spanning the period 3300–2900 BC, followed by burials that postdate 2900 BC that exhibit ‘nonlocal’ isotopic signatures. The combination of the isotope values and the grave goods associated with the non- local burials point to the foothills of the Carpathian Mountains as the nearest location representing a possible childhood ori- gin of this nonlocal group...

Probable is the connection between the Sárrétudvari nonlocals and the Transylvanian Livezile
group, which is chiefly distributed in the eastern belt of the Apuseni Mountains and shows simi- larities in burial tradition (Ciugudean, 1996, 1998). Both the isotopes and some of the burial ob- jects suggest that the Sárrétudvari nonlocals spent at least a part of their childhoods in a hillier re- gion, possibly the mountainous area southeast of the study site...

Some of our Early Bronze Age study sites in the Northern Pontic have yielded similar 87Sr/86Sr ra- tios and oxygen values. Therefore we cannot exclude a Northern Pontic place of origin for the Sár- rétudvari individuals. Furthermore, Northern Pontic individuals might have picked up the Transylv- anian isotopic signature or a mixed signature on their way to the Eastern Great Hungarian Plain.

http://journals.cambridge.org/abstra...03598X00048274

[Krefter]

rms2 I hope you're reading this. It Looks like the ancestor or close relative of Bell Beaker R1b was found in Hungary.

http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.co...d-are-r1b.html

The oldest R1b is from 2860-2620 BC. Doesn't that predate Bell Beaker in Central Europe?

Anyways, there's pretty old J2(4990-4850 BC) and E1b-M78(4780-4700 BC).

[J Man]

Some J2 from Neolithic Europe finally!

[vettor]

Thanks

What does F* represent?

is it from the area noted from this very very recent updated simplified map?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplog...28Y-DNA%29.PNG

[Anabasis]

What does NRY stand for in the paper?

[rms2]

The oldest R1b is from 2860-2620 BC. Doesn't that predate Bell Beaker in Central Europe?

Anyways, there's pretty old J2(4990-4850 BC) and E1b-M78(4780-4700 BC).

Vučedol predates Beaker, and it was from Vučedol, Somogyvar, and Zok-Mako that Gimbutas said Beaker derived.

. . .The two R1b samples are dated to the Vučedol period (~2,870-2,580 cal BC) and to the Gáta/Wieslburg culture (~1,950- 1,760 cal BC) . . .

[rms2]

Vučedol predates Beaker, and it was from Vučedol, Somogyvar, and Zok-Mako that Gimbutas said Beaker derived.

I have not had a chance to look at this paper yet, but thanks for posting a link to it here. Does anybody know yet about the terminal SNP status of these two R1bs?

I must confess, I like this part, particularly in light of what Christian Jeunesse wrote in The Dogma of the Iberian Origin of Bell Beaker: Attempting its Deconstruction.

The theory that R1b reached Central Europe (and possibly the Carpathian Basin as well) with the Bell Beaker migration, starting from southwestern Europe (Brandt et al., 2014) seems to be collapsing, as R1b (M269) has recently been found in Yamnaya (3,300-2,700 cal BC) population on the Russian steppe as well (Haak et al., 2015).