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Thread: R1b-U106 in Swedish Battle Axe Culture (a Corded Ware subgroup)

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    Well with the appearance that U106/P312 is much older than previously considered, brings up a big question as to how U106 (And P312) got that far west into Central Europe in so short amount of time. Here is some over view events and dates to consider.

     
    R1b-M343/PF6242 (R1a split) Rudnichnyy rayon, Kemerovo, Kemerovskaya oblast' (1460km west of MA-1 site*) 16,149 BC.

    R1b1a-P297/PF6398 (V88 Branch split) Gusinyy Brod, Novosibirskaya oblast' (1679km) 15,387 BC.

    R1b1a2-M269/PF6517 block of 38 SNPs (M73, M478 Branch split) Duplenskaya, Novosibirskaya oblast', Russia (1792km) 14,815 BC.

    Holocene 9700BC-present, end of Ice Age.

    Around the 30th of 38 M269 block of SNPs just east of the Urals 9,100 BC.

    I am seeing R1b1a2a-L23/S141/PF6534 appears to have appeared west of the Urals, Southwest of Novaya, Respublika Bashkortostan, Russia Chishminsky District 54.679970, 55.325795 ~7,576 BC, 3600km west of Lake Bailak, Irkutskaya oblast', Russia.

    R1b1a2a1-L51/M412/S167/PF6536 (R-Z2103 branched) appears to have appeared around Lopatino, Samarskaya oblast', Russia Lebyazhinka - Sok River (3708km) 7,195 BC.

    That all sets the stage that L11's block of seven SNPs begins 6400bc at or just west and/or south of the Lebyazhinka-IV Sok River site. With no horses, wheeled transportation they were still in a hunter gather society.

    8.2Ky (6200 bc) Event for ~400 yrs cooling was 3.3 deg C (decadal average) in less than ~20 years.

    Three SNPs into the L11 Block of seven, the 8.2Ky event ended ~7800ybp (5800 bc) and farming expands into Balkins/Turkey.

    Later at the site Lebyazhinka-IV Sok River, a ‘Samara hunter-gatherer’ I0124-Basal L278* was date 5640-5555 calBCE centuries before the appearance of domesticated animals in the middle Volga region Lebyazhinka, Samarskaya oblast', Russia. This would require an assumption that there would be at least 11 to 12 SNPs below the node level of L23 with this dating.

    Farming extends up into the Steeps and against the Western Urals. Spain's I0410 Basal M415* {V88?} dated at 5178-5066 cal BCE.

    P311/S128/PF6545 would be dated around 5,100 BC with U106 very quickly arrived with in a few generations.

    So over 1200 year period L11 moved west and setup shop in north central Europe with burial sites such as Baalberge_MN Quedlinburg I0559 R* 3645-3537 cal BCE.

    Yamna culture start 3600bc. Highly mobile steppe culture of pastoral nomads relying heavily on cattle (dairy farming). Sheep were also kept for their wool. Hunting, fishing and sporadic agriculture was practiced near rivers.

    Bell Beaker culture start Central Europe 2800bc.

    Kromsdorf 2 - grave#5: R1b-M269+ S21/U106- & grave#8: R1b~M343+ M269? xS21/U106 [2,600–2,500 cal BC (2 SD)].

    BB Central Euro 2500bc. Actual wheels from northern Europe by 2500 bc.

    4.2K year Climate event lasting ~100. Yamna culture end 2300bc. CWC end 2350 Cal bc. Unetice culture start 2300bc.

    U106 w/five derived SNPs buried in Lilla Beddinge in southern Sweden 2275 BC and 2032 BC.

    Tin in Brittany, Devon and Cornwall, and in the Iberian Peninsula around 2000 BC. Chariot burials dated c. 2000 BCE.

    Bell Beaker culture end 1800bc & Unetice culture end 1600bc. The transition from Early Bronze Age to Middle Bronze Age in Central and southeastern Europe 1600BC, Heuneburg fortified 16th century BC.


    So how did U106 and P312 under P310 get into central Europe so quickly?


    MJost
    Last edited by MJost; 06-16-2015 at 04:28 PM.
    148326, FGC-0FW1R, YSID6 & YF3272 R-DF13>FGC5494>*7448>*5496>*5521>*5511>*5539>*5538>* 5508>*5524
     
    Watterson USA GD1/67 & GD3/111, *5508+. GD1’s father’s sister-23andme pred. 3rd Cous w/ 0.91% DNA shared-3 seg. Largest on Chr1 w/non-Euro admix affirms my NPE paternal Watterson line via aDNA & YDNA. A 2nd pred. 4th cous has same DKA b. 1840's Georgia and MDKA d 1703 IOM. 3rd Cousin FtDNA FF is from the Watterson Ala. *5538+ b. IOM w/ GD6/67 & GD8/111 -SGD3. FGC5539+ a Scot-Ross GD13/111 -SGD8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clinton P View Post
    Here are my position data for the 5 "high-reliability" private SNPs

    7189712 20G (G>T = FGC36477+)
    8876940 46A (A>G = FGC36478+)
    9925446 46G 2DEL (G>A = FGC36479+)
    13397473 1A 15C (C>A = FGC36480+ (rs111331790))
    13412040 10T 22C (C>T = FGC36481+ (rs76331798))

    Clinton P
    FYI - BigY Coverage
    Count Rows: Count CombBED SNPs:
    5 2
    SNP Name POS-REF-ALT POS in CombBED Y/N (1/0)?
    FGC36477 7189712 7189712 1
    FGC36478 8876940 8876940 1
    FGC36479 9925446 9925446 0
    FGC36480 13397473 13397473 0
    FGC36481 13412040 13412040 0

    Ascii version of chart
    SNP Name POS-REF-ALT POS in CombBED Y/N (1/0)?
    FGC36477 7189712 7189712 1
    FGC36478 8876940 8876940 1
    FGC36479 9925446 9925446 0
    FGC36480 13397473 13397473 0
    FGC36481 13412040 13412040 0

    MJost
    Last edited by MJost; 06-16-2015 at 06:54 PM. Reason: Can not see CombBed cell numbers with blackstealth view
    148326, FGC-0FW1R, YSID6 & YF3272 R-DF13>FGC5494>*7448>*5496>*5521>*5511>*5539>*5538>* 5508>*5524
     
    Watterson USA GD1/67 & GD3/111, *5508+. GD1’s father’s sister-23andme pred. 3rd Cous w/ 0.91% DNA shared-3 seg. Largest on Chr1 w/non-Euro admix affirms my NPE paternal Watterson line via aDNA & YDNA. A 2nd pred. 4th cous has same DKA b. 1840's Georgia and MDKA d 1703 IOM. 3rd Cousin FtDNA FF is from the Watterson Ala. *5538+ b. IOM w/ GD6/67 & GD8/111 -SGD3. FGC5539+ a Scot-Ross GD13/111 -SGD8

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    Quote Originally Posted by MJost View Post
    Well with the appearance that U106/P312 is much older than previously considered, brings up a big question as to how U106 (And P312) got that far west into Central Europe in so short amount of time. Here is some over view events and dates to consider.

     
    R1b-M343/PF6242 (R1a split) Rudnichnyy rayon, Kemerovo, Kemerovskaya oblast' (1460km west of MA-1 site*) 16,149 BC.

    R1b1a-P297/PF6398 (V88 Branch split) Gusinyy Brod, Novosibirskaya oblast' (1679km) 15,387 BC.

    R1b1a2-M269/PF6517 block of 38 SNPs (M73, M478 Branch split) Duplenskaya, Novosibirskaya oblast', Russia (1792km) 14,815 BC.

    Holocene 9700BC-present, end of Ice Age.

    Around the 30th of 38 M269 block of SNPs just east of the Urals 9,100 BC.

    I am seeing R1b1a2a-L23/S141/PF6534 appears to have appeared west of the Urals, Southwest of Novaya, Respublika Bashkortostan, Russia Chishminsky District 54.679970, 55.325795 ~7,576 BC, 3600km west of Lake Bailak, Irkutskaya oblast', Russia.

    R1b1a2a1-L51/M412/S167/PF6536 (R-Z2103 branched) appears to have appeared around Lopatino, Samarskaya oblast', Russia Lebyazhinka - Sok River (3708km) 7,195 BC.

    That all sets the stage that L11's block of seven SNPs begins 6400bc at or just west and/or south of the Lebyazhinka-IV Sok River site. With no horses, wheeled transportation they were still in a hunter gather society.

    8.2Ky (6200 bc) Event for ~400 yrs cooling was 3.3 deg C (decadal average) in less than ~20 years.

    Three SNPs into the L11 Block of seven, the 8.2Ky event ended ~7800ybp (5800 bc) and farming expands into Balkins/Turkey.

    Later at the site Lebyazhinka-IV Sok River, a ‘Samara hunter-gatherer’ I0124-Basal L278* was date 5640-5555 calBCE centuries before the appearance of domesticated animals in the middle Volga region Lebyazhinka, Samarskaya oblast', Russia. This would require an assumption that there would be at least 11 to 12 SNPs below the node level of L23 with this dating.

    Farming extends up into the Steeps and against the Western Urals. Spain's I0410 Basal M415* {V88?} dated at 5178-5066 cal BCE.

    P311/S128/PF6545 would be dated around 5,100 BC with U106 very quickly arrived with in a few generations.

    So over 1200 year period L11 moved west and setup shop in north central Europe with burial sites such as Baalberge_MN Quedlinburg I0559 R* 3645-3537 cal BCE.

    Yamna culture start 3600bc. Highly mobile steppe culture of pastoral nomads relying heavily on cattle (dairy farming). Sheep were also kept for their wool. Hunting, fishing and sporadic agriculture was practiced near rivers.

    Bell Beaker culture start Central Europe 2800bc.

    Kromsdorf 2 - grave#5: R1b-M269+ S21/U106- & grave#8: R1b~M343+ M269? xS21/U106 [2,600–2,500 cal BC (2 SD)].

    BB Central Euro 2500bc. Actual wheels from northern Europe by 2500 bc.

    4.2K year Climate event lasting ~100. Yamna culture end 2300bc. CWC end 2350 Cal bc. Unetice culture start 2300bc.

    U106 w/five derived SNPs buried in Lilla Beddinge in southern Sweden 2275 BC and 2032 BC.

    Tin in Brittany, Devon and Cornwall, and in the Iberian Peninsula around 2000 BC. Chariot burials dated c. 2000 BCE.

    Bell Beaker culture end 1800bc & Unetice culture end 1600bc. The transition from Early Bronze Age to Middle Bronze Age in Central and southeastern Europe 1600BC, Heuneburg fortified 16th century BC.


    So how did U106 and P312 under P310 get into central Europe so quickly?


    MJost
    Over the last year as its become clear that they and L11 are older than thought, that has been a game changer in terms of options. When we were being told they dated to 2500BC and L11 was only fractionally older it was painted a totally different picture and options. If U106 and P312 date to around 3000BC and U106 and other R1b are in corded ware as well as bell beaker and a cousin of L51 is dominating Yamnaya west of Don then it really does look like L51, L11 and even early P312 and U106 (perhaps) probably originated in the Ukraine. Its hard to see any other way a dual west and north trajectory could be taken into those cultures. The only other option for a split in L11 going west and north is that L11 as a whole went through Corded Ware. I doubt that personally because L11 looks like a small minority in CW and perhaps has bled into that culture from an adjacent one where it was more common.

    As to how did it get across central Europe so fast, the two options are up the Danube to Hungary in Yamnaya which unfortunately doesnt take us further west in a self evident way OR it could have gone through the area north of the Danube via corded ware which at least has the advantage of reaching as far SW as Switzerland. A combination of both is even possible. However we dont actually know for a fact that P312 was attached to the earliest beaker in Iberia as yet. We only know that it was in central Europe.

    P312 have could have been in Iberia as the causal factor in the inception of beaker, in which case the path into Iberia was incredibly lightly trod and the movement was around the same time as the arrival of CW in Switzerland. However it is also possible that P312 wasnt. Its too complex a culture to work this out with certainty without ancient DNA.

    I favour the notion now that beaker itself in Iberia is manifestation of central Europeans with at least a partly CW heritage, perhaps a specialist group and certainly a founder effect, arriving c. 2750-2700BC. This doesnt mean the group was mainstream CW or even CW in origin but it almost certainly spent a generation or so passing through corded ware territory to get to the west.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MJost View Post
    Well with the appearance that U106/P312 is much older than previously considered, brings up a big question as to how U106 (And P312) got that far west into Central Europe in so short amount of time. Here is some over view events and dates to consider.

     
    R1b-M343/PF6242 (R1a split) Rudnichnyy rayon, Kemerovo, Kemerovskaya oblast' (1460km west of MA-1 site*) 16,149 BC.

    R1b1a-P297/PF6398 (V88 Branch split) Gusinyy Brod, Novosibirskaya oblast' (1679km) 15,387 BC.

    R1b1a2-M269/PF6517 block of 38 SNPs (M73, M478 Branch split) Duplenskaya, Novosibirskaya oblast', Russia (1792km) 14,815 BC.

    Holocene 9700BC-present, end of Ice Age.

    Around the 30th of 38 M269 block of SNPs just east of the Urals 9,100 BC.

    I am seeing R1b1a2a-L23/S141/PF6534 appears to have appeared west of the Urals, Southwest of Novaya, Respublika Bashkortostan, Russia Chishminsky District 54.679970, 55.325795 ~7,576 BC, 3600km west of Lake Bailak, Irkutskaya oblast', Russia.

    R1b1a2a1-L51/M412/S167/PF6536 (R-Z2103 branched) appears to have appeared around Lopatino, Samarskaya oblast', Russia Lebyazhinka - Sok River (3708km) 7,195 BC.

    That all sets the stage that L11's block of seven SNPs begins 6400bc at or just west and/or south of the Lebyazhinka-IV Sok River site. With no horses, wheeled transportation they were still in a hunter gather society.

    8.2Ky (6200 bc) Event for ~400 yrs cooling was 3.3 deg C (decadal average) in less than ~20 years.

    Three SNPs into the L11 Block of seven, the 8.2Ky event ended ~7800ybp (5800 bc) and farming expands into Balkins/Turkey.

    Later at the site Lebyazhinka-IV Sok River, a ‘Samara hunter-gatherer’ I0124-Basal L278* was date 5640-5555 calBCE centuries before the appearance of domesticated animals in the middle Volga region Lebyazhinka, Samarskaya oblast', Russia. This would require an assumption that there would be at least 11 to 12 SNPs below the node level of L23 with this dating.

    Farming extends up into the Steeps and against the Western Urals. Spain's I0410 Basal M415* {V88?} dated at 5178-5066 cal BCE.

    P311/S128/PF6545 would be dated around 5,100 BC with U106 very quickly arrived with in a few generations.

    So over 1200 year period L11 moved west and setup shop in north central Europe with burial sites such as Baalberge_MN Quedlinburg I0559 R* 3645-3537 cal BCE.

    Yamna culture start 3600bc. Highly mobile steppe culture of pastoral nomads relying heavily on cattle (dairy farming). Sheep were also kept for their wool. Hunting, fishing and sporadic agriculture was practiced near rivers.

    Bell Beaker culture start Central Europe 2800bc.

    Kromsdorf 2 - grave#5: R1b-M269+ S21/U106- & grave#8: R1b~M343+ M269? xS21/U106 [2,600–2,500 cal BC (2 SD)].

    BB Central Euro 2500bc. Actual wheels from northern Europe by 2500 bc.

    4.2K year Climate event lasting ~100. Yamna culture end 2300bc. CWC end 2350 Cal bc. Unetice culture start 2300bc.

    U106 w/five derived SNPs buried in Lilla Beddinge in southern Sweden 2275 BC and 2032 BC.

    Tin in Brittany, Devon and Cornwall, and in the Iberian Peninsula around 2000 BC. Chariot burials dated c. 2000 BCE.

    Bell Beaker culture end 1800bc & Unetice culture end 1600bc. The transition from Early Bronze Age to Middle Bronze Age in Central and southeastern Europe 1600BC, Heuneburg fortified 16th century BC.


    So how did U106 and P312 under P310 get into central Europe so quickly?


    MJost
    The thing to note is both Yamnaya (as far as Hungary) and CW (as far as Switzerland) moved pretty damn fast, possibly going from starting points in and adjacent to Ukraine to their westernmost destinations in just a century.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MJost View Post
    FYI - BigY Coverage
    Count Rows: Count CombBED SNPs:
    5 2
    SNP Name POS-REF-ALT POS in CombBED Y/N (1/0)?
    FGC36477 7189712 7189712 1
    FGC36478 8876940 8876940 1
    FGC36479 9925446 9925446 0
    FGC36480 13397473 13397473 0
    FGC36481 13412040 13412040 0

    Ascii version of chart
    SNP Name POS-REF-ALT POS in CombBED Y/N (1/0)?
    FGC36477 7189712 7189712 1
    FGC36478 8876940 8876940 1
    FGC36479 9925446 9925446 0
    FGC36480 13397473 13397473 0
    FGC36481 13412040 13412040 0

    MJost

    And that is why we have a Wish-A-SNP request out to YSEQ since we need to test some of these SNPs for all of the Big-Y results sitting right under U106. As soon as we hear from Astrid or Thomas we will start working on placing some YSEQ orders for the ones that are testable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cofgene View Post
    And that is why we have a Wish-A-SNP request out to YSEQ since we need to test some of these SNPs for all of the Big-Y results sitting right under U106. As soon as we hear from Astrid or Thomas we will start working on placing some YSEQ orders for the ones that are testable.
    But only if you're U106** !!

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    That's not yet confirmed. The clades listed in post #15 above which have not yet been added to the ISOGG tree. have only been observed in BigY or Chromo2 data, which are not exhaustive surveys of the Y-chromosome by design. So there is still a remote possibility that there may be an upstream common SNP between any of them and RISE98.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VinceT View Post
    That's not yet confirmed. The clades listed in post #15 above which have not yet been added to the ISOGG tree. have only been observed in BigY or Chromo2 data, which are not exhaustive surveys of the Y-chromosome by design. So there is still a remote possibility that there may be an upstream common SNP between any of them and RISE98.
    I was going to include some caveats but it was already past my bed time so decided to keep it brief : )

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    I thought this was interesting: http://www.archasa.se/introduction-o...ery-in-sweden/

    Åsa M Larsson did her PhD thesis

    on the relationship between the Battle Axe culture and the Pitted Ware culture which both preceeded it and was contemporary with it in parts of Sweden. One aspect that really caught my attention was that of the pottery traditions which differed in many notable ways, not just superficially as in decorations, but more profoundly in craft choices and social organisation of that craft. Battle Axe pottery represents a technological break with previous traditions and seems to appear as a fully formed craft with little or no variation or learning curve. This is in contrast with the stone technology and settlement patterns which have considerable overlap with the Pitted Ware culture in Eastern Sweden and the Funnel Beaker culture in the South and West. .... Swedish Battle Axe pottery differs in some ways from ”classic” Corded Ware pottery found on the continent, including Denmark. It is remarkably similar to certain regional types of Finnish Corded Ware however.
    Here is the dissertation http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get...FULLTEXT01.pdf

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    Iain McDonald has recently published (in the Yahoo R1b-U106 group) his updated series of SNP-based TMRCA age estimates for clade R1b-U106 (and for all its all major subclades). His TMRCA estimate for clade R1b-U106 is now 2420 BC (2798 BC - 2073 BC), while he estimates that U106 itself was born about 2485 BC (2798 BC - 2073 BC). This is about half a millennium later than suggested by the most recent estimates by Full (4900 ybp, or 5400-4400 ybp), and more than a millennium later than previously suggested by my own “guesstimates” (5500 ybp, or 6000-5000 ybp).

    Let’s see whether the RISE98 data are favoring any of the above estimates. As discussed in many of the above posts, RISE98 is dated to about 2154 BC (2275-2032 BC) and seems to have at least 5 reliable SNPs downstream of U106. They are considered “reliable” because each of them is represented by at least 4 independent reads (or 4 to 9 reads) with all those reads showing the presence of a derived allele, so the risk of a false positive result is practically close to null. Of course, the RISE98 results include many more candidates for “novel variants” under U106, but they are mostly represented by just 1 or 2 reads, so in all such cases it is extremely difficult to distinguish between a “genuine” mutation and a “false positive” one.

    To estimate an approximate number of years per each “private” SNP discovered in RISE98, we need to know the total length of the Y-DNA sequence that shows at least 4x coverage in this particular sample. Unfortunately, I don’t know the exact length of that “4x coverage” sequence, but we can use the below data received from Vladimir Tagankin to estimate it.

    RISE98 U106
    line coverage 9.783.990 bp
    n/c 49.589.576 bp
    min coverage 1
    max coverage 149
    mean coverage 3.68
    median coverage 3
    Since the mean coverage is 3.68 while the median coverage is 3, we can be almost certain that the total sequence with at least 4x coverage is between 3.0 and 4.5 Mb (or let’s say about 4 Mb). In case anyone can provide the exact value, I will of course refine my calculations.

    Let’s apply a relatively broad range of mutation rates circulating in the literature (and on this forum), including a relatively low mutation rate suggested by Mendez et al. (0.62 x 10^-9 per nucleotide per year), the “moderate” rate suggested by the Ust’ -Ishim data (0.76 x 10^-9 per nucleotide per year) and the relatively high mutation rate suggested by Adamov et al. (0.82 x 10^-9 per nucleotide per year), a value that is used in the YFull’s TMRCA estimates.

    mutation rate years/SNP* years per 5 SNPs* U106 TMRCA age
    0.62 x 10^-9 403 2015 4169 BC (6.2 kya)
    0.66 x 10^-9 379 1895 4049 BC (6.0 kya)
    0.70 x 10^-9 357 1785 3939 BC (5.9 kya)
    0.76 x 10^-9 329 1645 3799 BC (5.8 kya)
    0.82 x 10^-9 305 1525 3679 BC (5.7 kya)
    * - please note that this applies only to SNPs showing at least 4x coverage in sample RISE98


    We need to keep in mind that this is based on just one ancient sample that is U106+ and we need at least one more “independent” ancient lineage under U106 to reach a sufficient level of confidence regarding the most likely age for the initial split under U106. Nevertheless, the above data suggest quite strongly that U106 diverged most likely between 6500 and 5000 years ago, probably within the 6000-5500 BP time frame. This perfectly fits my earliest attempts to calculate the TMRCA age for R1b-U106, but is also consistent with my more recent SNP-based “guesstimates”, while confirming my suspicions that YFull underestimates by about 10-20%. This also suggests that the recent U106 age estimate produced by Iain McDonald may turn out to be a strong underestimation (by about 20-25%), although I would wait for another ancient U106 sample (of relatively good quality) to get more confidence in this respect.

  19. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Michał For This Useful Post:

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