Page 83 of 108 FirstFirst ... 3373818283848593 ... LastLast
Results 821 to 830 of 1080

Thread: Population genomics of Bronze Age Eurasia (Allentoft et al. 2015)

  1. #821
    Registered Users
    Posts
    6,651
    Sex
    Location
    Australia
    Ethnicity
    Italian Alpine
    Nationality
    Australian and Italian
    Y-DNA (P)
    T1a2 - SK1480
    mtDNA (M)
    H95a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-S8172
    mtDNA (P)
    T2b17

    Australia Italy Veneto Friuli Italy Trentino Alto Adige Italy Ladinia Republic of Venice
    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    Which Greek descriptions of Scythian related people are you referring to? I'm only familiar with Herodotus' description of the Boudini, who've been traditionally been considered as Finno-Ugric speakers in the literature (I suspect this stems from their presence in the forest-steppes rather than the steppes proper).

    Also, is there any data on Afanasievo pigmentation so far?

    Much appreciate all the pigmentation-related work you're doing, Krefter.
    The Budini main town was called Tanais which is now called Azov, it was a slave centre from Roman times to the year 1477 when the Ottomans closed the black sea to the Aegean sea. Many slaves where taken to southern Europe via this port of Tanais


    My Path = ( K-M9+, LT-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-CTS6397 yDna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtDna
    Son's mtDna = K1a4p

  2. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to vettor For This Useful Post:

     DMXX (06-28-2015),  Hando (07-07-2015),  lgmayka (06-28-2015)

  3. #822
    Banned
    Posts
    1,103
    Sex
    Location
    Chicago, Illinois
    Ethnicity
    Pashtun
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a1a1-M417 (Z94).
    mtDNA (M)
    M4'67

    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    i think the Caucasus route is downplayed too extremely. In the Maykop period you had a chain of settlements from the Don to NW Iran and ample scope for geneflow along the route. I also think the huge changes after fall of the Kura-Araxes culture c. 2600BC and rise of a social structure more like the north of the Caucasus and steppe is being overlooked. I find it very hard to believe there wasnt some geneflow from the north to the south Caucasus involved - albeit perhaps not on the scale or at the sort of elite level which might cause permanent language shift. Anyone considering Z2103 in Armenia, NW Iran, south Caucasus etc as some sort of game changer is being a bit of a drama queen IMO.

    As an aside, Russian and Ukraine archaeology is going through almost yearly revolutionary changes in understanding of cultural chronology due to a massive improvement in RC dating practices from a low starting point. Maykop off-steppe was pushed back towards 4000BC and now Repin (supposedly linked to Maykop influences on Sredny Stog) is also being pushed back towards 4000BC (which seems to me to help fill the steppe hiatus period). Anyway, with both cultures pushed back some rethinking may take place on the timing of this influence. Regardless it seems to me entirely believable that if Maykop and Repin were in contact and if the Maykop network and enclaves stretched from the Don to NW Iran in the centuries centred on c. 3500BC that Z2103 and perhaps other northern lineages could have trickled south.

    If north to south geneflow did happen by the Caucasus route pre-2000BC then there are two key windows for this. First you have the period around 3500BC when the Maykop network linked from the steppe to NW Iran as just described above. Then that network died and for some period 3400/3000-2700/2500BC Kura-Araxes took over and this didnt include a link to the north of the Caucasus. Then you have a 2nd window of opportunity from perhaps as early as 2700BC when the Kura-Araxes network collapsed and vaguely northern forms of settlement, burial and social structure took over the south Caucasus.

    Either or both of those windows in the centuries before and after Kura-Araxes would provide clear opportunities for a modest amount of north to south geneflow. I dont think we are talking huge nos or language change necessarily but enough to explain a Z2103 presence south of the Caucasus or in NW Iran at an early stage before the traditional period of invasions of the Armenians etc from the Balkans. Modest movements of Z2103 direct from the steppe through the Caucasus c. 3500BC or c. 2700BC or so would provide a scenario of genetic flow without linguistic change which would admirably fit the current lack of consistent linguistic associations with Z2103 in SW Asia.
    Interestingly, an exceedingly excellent model for the BA Armenians is this (as always, David was rather generous with his time, and tested a few models. And as always, I am very grateful for his work):

    74.8% EEF + 25.2% Afanasievo

    chisq=0.118

    tail probability=0.989638

    This is also a decent model:

    68.8% EEF + 31.2% Yamnaya

    chisq=2.140

    tail probability=0.543766

    These fits, coupled with the presence of R1b, are a clear indication that these people were involved in a network of north-south geneflow. Your ideas here are very solid.

    Also, an excellent fit for Yamnaya is:

    57.3% BA Armenian + 42.7% EHG

    chisq=0.573

    tail probability=0.902514

    So it is bidirectional, or at the very least we are dealing with some very complex dynamics, in terms of geneflow.

    Edit: Also, populations like the BA Armenians probably constitute the largest component of genetic ancestry for West Asian highlanders. A good fit for Iranians:

    78% BA Armenian + 17.1% BedouinB + 5% Dai

    A fit that included Sintashta was almost identical, and had Iranians at only 5.5% Sintashta. So, it seems that the "northern" shift of Iranic peoples in West Asia proper has been mediated via non-IE populations like the BA Armenians, and not from actual steppe IE populations. For comparison, 10 HGDP Pashtuns under a similar model:

    60.6% Sintashta + 25.5% BA Armenian + 13.8% Dai
    Last edited by Sein; 06-28-2015 at 06:47 PM.

  4. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Sein For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (06-29-2015),  DMXX (06-28-2015),  Hando (07-07-2015),  Kale (06-28-2015),  Krefter (06-28-2015),  Kurd (06-28-2015),  Leeroy Jenkins (06-28-2015),  Raskolnikov (06-28-2015)

  5. #823
    Registered Users
    Posts
    645
    Sex
    Location
    In the tent of Abu kadreh
    Ethnicity
    Kassitic acolyte
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1a1b1a1(J-PF7263)
    mtDNA (M)
    J2b1

    Quote Originally Posted by Sein View Post
    Interestingly, an exceedingly excellent model for the BA Armenians is this (as always, David was rather generous with his time, and tested a few models. And as always, I am very grateful for his work):

    74.8% EEF + 25.2% Afanasievo

    chisq=0.118

    tail probability=0.989638

    This is also a decent model:

    68.8% EEF + 31.2% Yamnaya

    chisq=2.140

    tail probability=0.543766

    These fits, coupled with the presence of R1b, are a clear indication that these people were involved in a network of north-south geneflow. Your ideas here are very solid.

    Also, an excellent fit for Yamnaya is:

    57.3% BA Armenian + 42.7% EHG

    chisq=0.573

    tail probability=0.902514

    So it is bidirectional, or at the very least we are dealing with some very complex dynamics, in terms of geneflow.

    Edit: Also, populations like the BA Armenians probably constitute the largest component of genetic ancestry for West Asian highlanders. A good fit for Iranians:

    78% BA Armenian + 17.1% BedouinB + 5% Dai

    A fit that included Sintashta was almost identical, and had Iranians at only 5.5% Sintashta. So, it seems that the "northern" shift of Iranic peoples in West Asia proper has been mediated via non-IE populations like the BA Armenians, and not from actual steppe IE populations. For comparison, 10 HGDP Pashtuns under a similar model:

    60.6% Sintashta + 25.5% BA Armenian + 13.8% Dai
    We have no genetic data on kassites or elamites or any pre-Iranian cultures. So I think it's wise to refrain, from flying off the handle, because of a few bronze age Armenian samples of dubious quality. I think adding a south-Asian sample instead of BA Armenian, would be more useful exercise in qpAdm. As I highly doubt that the bronze age Armenian or the Georgians are highly related to pre-steppe invasion inhabitants of south-central-asia.
    Last edited by Arbogan; 06-28-2015 at 07:42 PM.

  6. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Arbogan For This Useful Post:

     Awale (06-29-2015),  DMXX (06-28-2015),  Hando (07-07-2015)

  7. #824
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,402
    Sex
    Omitted

    Wow, that fit for BA Armenians is fantastic. Makes a lot of sense too.

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to Kale For This Useful Post:

     Sein (06-29-2015)

  9. #825
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,737
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R2a*-M124 (L295-)
    mtDNA (M)
    D4j5*

    Quote Originally Posted by Sein View Post
    A fit that included Sintashta was almost identical, and had Iranians at only 5.5% Sintashta. So, it seems that the "northern" shift of Iranic peoples in West Asia proper has been mediated via non-IE populations like the BA Armenians, and not from actual steppe IE populations. For comparison, 10 HGDP Pashtuns under a similar model:
    Some discussion points addressing the validity of this proposition:

    1) We have no aDNA from anywhere in the Iranian plateau. Frankly, based on our available data, suppositions regarding the relevance of the Bronze Age Armenians in the ethnogenesis of modern Iranians makes as much sense as relating the West Anatolian farmer (identical to Stuttgart) to Bedouins.

    2) Outside of location, little is known about the archaeological or linguistic context of these Bronze Age Armenians. Their identification with Hurrians is, as far as I can see from the discussions here, entirely speculative. It could well be the case they are early speakers of proto-Armenian (logical given their position in the northern Armenian highlands). As such, any steppe-mediated ancestry in the Iranian qpAdm results could well be masked within the Bronze Age Armenian scores.

    3) There is no reason to solely rely on qpAdm statistics (which appears to be preferred here) given
    a) The outcomes are entirely dependent on prior-selected populations (I could model Pashtuns using Yamnaya, Burusho and Dai and am fairly certain they will end up with <5% steppe ancestry), and
    b) We have an abundance of both prior genetic (Y-DNA R1a1a and mtDNA U4/5/T frequencies? ADMIXTURE component differences with immediate neighbours?) and archaeological data (Grey Ware culture?) suggesting some sort of movement (currently unknown genetic contribution) from Central Asia into northern Iran.

    The other results also do suffer from a similar problem; we do not have, for instance, relevant samples from Maikop (yet, hopefully) or any archaeological cultures around the Caspian brim which may have contributed the "teal" to Yamnaya. Outside of giving us some directionality (which you inferred and I agree with), we're no closer to identifying precisely what happened in a genomic context in either the steppes or the Caucasus other than north-to-south geneflow.

    Then again, I prefer taking a methodological and nuanced approach to these topics. I've seen the Eurogenes comments and, quite evidently, I'm a minority at least there.
    Last edited by DMXX; 06-28-2015 at 08:06 PM. Reason: Final comment inserted

  10. The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to DMXX For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (06-29-2015),  Arame (06-29-2015),  Arbogan (06-28-2015),  everest59 (06-28-2015),  Hando (07-11-2015),  jesus (06-28-2015),  Kurd (06-28-2015),  Sein (06-29-2015),  Táltos (06-28-2015)

  11. #826
    Registered Users
    Posts
    645
    Sex
    Location
    In the tent of Abu kadreh
    Ethnicity
    Kassitic acolyte
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1a1b1a1(J-PF7263)
    mtDNA (M)
    J2b1

    Here is what Vladimir minorsky had to say about the subject(now it's not genetics, but it's interesting nonetheless in his inferential reconstruction of pre-Iranian landscape):

    THE PRE-IRANIAN PERIOD
    The territory of Iran was not at first known by this name. About the year 1000 B.C. the Indo- European Iranians, speaking a language of the same family as the ancient Indian, Greek, Latin and other tongues, began to infiltrate into this country and, after they had occupied it, the country was named after them. We cannot say whence our Iranian cousins came or how long it took them to conquer their present habitat. We only know that between 844 B.c. and 836 B.C. the annals of t he Assyrian Kingdom for the first time refer to the presence of Medians (Hcida) and Persians (Parsua) somewhere to the south of Lake Urmia. Who, then, were the inhabitants displaced by the Iranian invasion ? For the eastern part of Iran we have no definite written indications, but we know of the existence in the West of at least two mighty kingdonms which for a long time asserted their inde- pendence against their more famous Mesopotamian neighbours. In the North, the kingdom of Van (Urartu or Khaldi) stretched between the three great lakes: Van (in present-day Turkey), Urmia {in Iran) and Sevan (in Soviet Armenia). In the extreme south, the kingdom of Elam, with its capital Susa (Shushlan-the-Palace of the Book of Esther) dominated vast territories to the north-west of the Persian Gulf. Both Van and Elam had languages of their own. These were unlike the languages of Mesopotamia, but as the speakers used the cuneiformr script invented in Mesopotamia, it has been possible to establish the phonetic character of their tongues and gradually to ascertain the meaning of their inscriptions, some of which are bilingual.

    Apart from the two kingdoms, numerous small principalities existed in the central part of the Zagros. Some did not extend, apparently, beyond a few secluded valleys. Of them we know little beyond the names, which sound uncommon, unlike anything else. Mountains towering over lowlands are often the refuge of remnants of populations displaced from the plains: this is true of the sources of the Indus, as it is of the Caucasus, and it is a clue to the origin of the Zagros tribes, lost in the mists of prehistory. Among such lesser peoples one should especially mention the Kassites (Kashshu), located in the northern part of present-day Luristan. The Kashshu once descended from their hills and ruled over Babylon, as a result of which we have a list of Kassite words. The language is an idiom apparently without relatives, but to the astonishment of the decipherers some names sound Indo-European: not " Iranian " Indo-European, but rather " Indian " Indo-European (e.g., Suryash). Some very early infiltration was naturally inferred, and as the Babylonians called horses " asses of the Eastern hills," it was suggested that these early Indo-Europeans were the horse-trainers who established themselves among the Zagros tribes, first as mercenaries and then probably as masters, as occurred in Upper Mesopotamia and also in the Hittite kingdom in Asia Minor. Shortly before 1930 a large number of bronze objects were discovered in northern Luristan, including bits and trappings which pointed to an advanced stage of horse-domestication in the area. The author was the first to show the connection between these groups of factors and to attribute the find to the Kassites, or rather to the early Indo- Europeans established among them.
    Last edited by Arbogan; 06-28-2015 at 08:09 PM.

  12. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Arbogan For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (06-29-2015),  DMXX (06-28-2015),  Hando (07-11-2015),  Kurd (06-28-2015),  lgmayka (06-28-2015),  parasar (06-28-2015),  Táltos (06-28-2015),  Tomenable (07-01-2015)

  13. #827
    Banned
    Posts
    5,171
    Sex

    Although I am a fan of formal methods, modeling Pashtuns based on Sintashta, ~15% Dai, Armenians, Andronovo, Yamnaya, and Bedouin, simply does not account for the S Asian/Indian admixture component present in modern Pashtuns, and also to a lesser extent Iranians. We need this component to sensibly account for admixture, and I do believe adding this will yield good fits whenever this happens.


    EDIT: Modeling individuals based on admixture should not be discounted especially if the references are not too old. As you may be aware there are a couple of methods available to do this. Allele frequencies which everyone is familiar with and by segments (ie 23andMe)
    Last edited by Kurd; 06-28-2015 at 09:33 PM.

  14. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Kurd For This Useful Post:

     DMXX (06-28-2015),  everest59 (06-28-2015),  Hando (07-11-2015),  surbakhunWeesste (06-28-2015)

  15. #828
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,298
    Sex
    mtDNA (M)
    u2b2 gonur;swat

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurd View Post
    Although I am a fan of formal methods, modeling Pashtuns based on Sintashta, Dai, Armenians, Andronovo, Yamnaya, and Bedouin, simply does not account for the S Asian/Indian admixture component present in modern Pashtuns, and also to a lesser extent Iranians. We need this component to sensibly account for admixture, and I do believe adding this will yield good fits whenever this happens.


    EDIT: Modeling individuals based on admixture should not be discounted especially if the references are not too old. As you may be aware there are a couple of methods available to do this. Allele frequencies which everyone is familiar with and by segments (ie 23andMe)
    Makes sense.

  16. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to surbakhunWeesste For This Useful Post:

     DMXX (06-28-2015),  Hando (07-11-2015),  Kurd (06-28-2015)

  17. #829
    Registered Users
    Posts
    174
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbogan View Post
    Here is what Vladimir minorsky had to say about the subject(now it's not genetics, but it's interesting nonetheless in his inferential reconstruction of pre-Iranian landscape):

    THE PRE-IRANIAN PERIOD
    The territory of Iran was not at first known by this name. About the year 1000 B.C. the Indo- European Iranians, speaking a language of the same family as the ancient Indian, Greek, Latin and other tongues, began to infiltrate into this country and, after they had occupied it, the country was named after them. We cannot say whence our Iranian cousins came or how long it took them to conquer their present habitat. We only know that between 844 B.c. and 836 B.C. the annals of t he Assyrian Kingdom for the first time refer to the presence of Medians (Hcida) and Persians (Parsua) somewhere to the south of Lake Urmia. Who, then, were the inhabitants displaced by the Iranian invasion ? For the eastern part of Iran we have no definite written indications, but we know of the existence in the West of at least two mighty kingdoms which for a long time asserted their inde- pendence against their more famous Mesopotamian neighbours. In the North, the kingdom of Van (Urartu or Khaldi) stretched between the three great lakes: Van (in present-day Turkey), Urmia {in Iran) and Sevan (in Soviet Armenia). In the extreme south, the kingdom of Elam, with its capital Susa (Shushlan-the-Palace of the Book of Esther) dominated vast territories to the north-west of the Persian Gulf. Both Van and Elam had languages of their own. These were unlike the languages of Mesopotamia, but as the speakers used the cuneiformr script invented in Mesopotamia, it has been possible to establish the phonetic character of their tongues and gradually to ascertain the meaning of their inscriptions, some of which are bilingual.

    Apart from the two kingdoms, numerous small principalities existed in the central part of the Zagros. Some did not extend, apparently, beyond a few secluded valleys. Of them we know little beyond the names, which sound uncommon, unlike anything else. Mountains towering over lowlands are often the refuge of remnants of populations displaced from the plains: this is true of the sources of the Indus, as it is of the Caucasus, and it is a clue to the origin of the Zagros tribes, lost in the mists of prehistory. Among such lesser peoples one should especially mention the Kassites (Kashshu), located in the northern part of present-day Luristan. The Kashshu once descended from their hills and ruled over Babylon, as a result of which we have a list of Kassite words. The language is an idiom apparently without relatives, but to the astonishment of the decipherers some names sound Indo-European: not " Iranian " Indo-European, but rather " Indian " Indo-European (e.g., Suryash). Some very early infiltration was naturally inferred, and as the Babylonians called horses " asses of the Eastern hills," it was suggested that these early Indo-Europeans were the horse-trainers who established themselves among the Zagros tribes, first as mercenaries and then probably as masters, as occurred in Upper Mesopotamia and also in the Hittite kingdom in Asia Minor. Shortly before 1930 a large number of bronze objects were discovered in northern Luristan, including bits and trappings which pointed to an advanced stage of horse-domestication in the area. The author was the first to show the connection between these groups of factors and to attribute the find to the Kassites, or rather to the early Indo- Europeans established among them.
    From Mallory:
    "In the beginning of the third millennium BC on the Jemdet-Nasr clay tablets and during the Ur III period (the late 3rd mellinnium BC) a Sumerian word for horse anše.zizi - anše.kur.ra 'ass of the mountains' appeared. Most scholars believe that it derived from the Indo-European root, as the corresponding word in the Caucasian languages also did."

    Ur III period = 2100-2000 BC

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kur
    In Sumerian mythology, Kur is considered the first ever dragon, and usually referred to the Zagros mountains to the east of Sumer.

  18. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Palisto For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (06-29-2015),  Hando (07-11-2015),  Kurd (06-28-2015),  lgmayka (06-28-2015),  Táltos (06-28-2015),  Tomenable (07-01-2015)

  19. #830
    Registered Users
    Posts
    829
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Nepalese
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    C5a
    mtDNA (M)
    N1e'I

    Nepal United States of America
    Quote Originally Posted by Kurd View Post
    Although I am a fan of formal methods, modeling Pashtuns based on Sintashta, ~15% Dai, Armenians, Andronovo, Yamnaya, and Bedouin, simply does not account for the S Asian/Indian admixture component present in modern Pashtuns, and also to a lesser extent Iranians. We need this component to sensibly account for admixture, and I do believe adding this will yield good fits whenever this happens.


    EDIT: Modeling individuals based on admixture should not be discounted especially if the references are not too old. As you may be aware there are a couple of methods available to do this. Allele frequencies which everyone is familiar with and by segments (ie 23andMe)
    The Dai is supposed to capture ASI, since these softwares cannot distinguish various East Eurasian like components well.
    However, IMO the Sintashta admixture in Pashtuns is being overestimated big time due to lack of South Asian adna.
    My guess would be 20 to 30% Sintashtashtalike admixture in Pashtuns based on that 10% Northern Euro score.

  20. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to everest59 For This Useful Post:

     Chad Rohlfsen (06-28-2015),  DMXX (06-28-2015),  Hando (07-11-2015),  Kurd (06-28-2015),  Leeroy Jenkins (06-28-2015),  Sein (06-29-2015)

Page 83 of 108 FirstFirst ... 3373818283848593 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Ethics in Studies of Population Genomics
    By Eвa in forum General
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 07-03-2018, 12:09 AM
  2. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 01-12-2018, 10:12 PM
  3. Request: Y-DNA haplogroup results from Allentoft 2015
    By Jean M in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 422
    Last Post: 05-19-2017, 03:42 PM
  4. R1b findings by (Allentoft et al. 2015)
    By alan in forum R1b General
    Replies: 74
    Last Post: 06-25-2015, 01:35 PM
  5. Ancient Kurgan Altai J2a RISE602 Allentoft et al. 2015
    By ChrisR in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-12-2015, 05:19 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •