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Thread: Genetic Drift Sharing: Bell Beaker & WHG

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    I think the rarity of stelae in the Balkans and Central Europe shows just how rapid that movement was. One minute they are in places like the Ukraine, the next they are in the Alps, France and Iberia.
    Actually the more I dig into the literature the more stelae I find. One trail clearly goes from the Balkans to Greece (which I relate to Proto-Greek). Another goes up the Danube to the Carpathian Basin.

    30.StelaeExtraRef.JPG

    In my view, initially only a few prospectors peeled away from the mother group in the Carpathian Basin to arrive in the Alps, and move on to Italy and Iberia. They blazed the trail that others could travel for centuries, to and fro. The Carpathian Basin was not abandoned.

    As I've said previously, it could be that the diversity of subclades we see in Central Europe is due to a lot of smaller clans settling in fringe Corded Ware areas and never really making the trek to Iberia. It certainly looks like U106 never made the trek.
    While I agree entirely that the mother group of P312 did not move en masse to Iberia, there seems no particular reason for U106 to be in the Carpathian Basin in the first place. It is more likely to have travelled east and north of the Carpathians.
    Last edited by Jean M; 04-06-2015 at 05:09 PM.

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  3. #22
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    [QUOTE=Richard A. Rocca;77913]In Iberia, I don't think there is any likelier scenario that would explain high P312+ there combined with the heavy amount of Bell Beaker material plus their collectively older age. A non-R1b early Iberian Bell Beaker presence followed by a full DF27 advance from central Europe into Iberia fails on my levels..[/QUOTE

    What is known about the location of the earliest branches of DF27? Also diversity? (I know some do not think diversity important but I am still interested to know).

    I am afraid I have no particular knowledge of these facts.

    Is there a suggestion of earliest branches occuring in Central Europe, Iberia, Isles...??

  4. #23
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    Here's something that I wonder about that was posted by Piquerobi in another thread:

    Decorated horse phalanges have also been reported from Bell Beaker sites in Spain (Maier 1961; Piggott 1983). They are perhaps the strongest cultural marker for the Botai, and show a connection with the Tersek, a contemporaneous Copper Age culture in the Turgay region to the west (Kalieva et al. 1989).
    Source: Olsen, S. (2003). "The Exploitation of Horses at Botai, Kazakhstan". In Levine, Marsha; Renfrew, Colin; Boyle, Katie. Prehistoric Steppe Adaptation and the Horse. Cambridge: McDonald Institute.
    Piquerobi was quoting something that was posted at some other forum by some unknown person. I wonder which works the "Maier 1961" and "Piggott 1983" references are pointing to; it would be nice to know. Maybe they are cited in the source article by Olsen, S.?

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post59628

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  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Piquerobi was quoting something that was posted at some other forum by some unknown person. I wonder which works the "Maier 1961" and "Piggott 1983" references are pointing to; it would be nice to know. Maybe they are cited in the source article by Olsen, S.?
    You have access to Levine, Renfrew and Boyle 2003 in Mini-Library > Books > Steppe. That quote is from p. 94. But I'll do the donkey work.

    Maier, R.A., 1961. Neolithische Tierknochen-Idole un Tierknochen-Anhänger Europas. Bericht der Römisch-Germanischen Kommission 42, 171–305.
    Piggott, S., 1983. The Earliest Wheeled Transport. Ithaca (NY): Cornell University Press.

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    Thanks. I tracked down something relevant to the decorated horse phalanges issue.

    Chapter Four of the book, Are All Warriors Male?: Gender Roles on the Ancient Eurasian Steppe, edited by Katheryn M. Linduff and Karen Sydney Rubinson, is entitled "Women's Attire and Possible Sacred Role in 4th Millennium Northern Kazakhstan", and was written by Sandra Olsen and Deborah G. Harding. This is from page 73:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandra Olsen and Deborah G. Harding
    Decorated horse phalanges have also been identified at Neolithic and Bell Beaker sites in Spain (Almagro Basch 1966; Ayala Juan 1985; Cardoso 1995). The Spanish ones are more simply and abstractly decorated, primarily by series of dimples drilled into the front (volar) surface.
    I'm not sure it's all that meaningful, however, since that chapter describes decorated animal phalanges from a number of different peoples and cultures. From what I could see, not all peoples used horse phalanges; Beaker, Botai, and Tersek peoples did, and there was one example cited from the Epipaleolithic site of Cuina Turcului in Romania in the Iron Gate region of the Danube.

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    This supplementary paper released a fortnight ago by Anna Szécsényi-Nagy might help on the genetic drift ......some interesting maps as well

    http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.o...50339supp1.pdf


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  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Actually the more I dig into the literature the more stelae I find. One trail clearly goes from the Balkans to Greece (which I relate to Proto-Greek). Another goes up the Danube to the Carpathian Basin.

    30.StelaeExtraRef.JPG

    In my view, initially only a few prospectors peeled away from the mother group in the Carpathian Basin to arrive in the Alps, and move on to Italy and Iberia. They blazed the trail that others could travel for centuries, to and fro. The Carpathian Basin was not abandoned.



    While I agree entirely that the mother group of P312 did not move en masse to Iberia, there seems no particular reason for U106 to be in the Carpathian Basin in the first place. It is more likely to have travelled east and north of the Carpathians.
    Where would the migration of Proto Greek start and when?

    And would U106 in your scenario be found in Central (Polish?) Corded Ware?

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Where would the migration of Proto Greek start and when?

    And would U106 in your scenario be found in Central (Polish?) Corded Ware?
    Let's not drift off the subject.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Let's not drift off the subject.
    Lol, har har.
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    It damned unlucky for P312 folks that their yDNA has to be linked to beaker - one of the most complex and baffling archaeological phenomenons. Its a a situation where archaeology is not going to help the geneticists but more a case the geneticists will help the archaeologists to crack exactly what beaker was. Its not even as simple as establishing what DNA was in what areas and what beaker phases. We also need to establish in what cultures P312 and before it L11 and L51 were located in pre-beaker times. Only then will we properly understand.

    My personal view now is that beaker was a very fast local response to something coming in from central Europe c. 2800BC or a little later. I have completely abandoned the idea that the spread of copper across the Med and southern Alps corresponds with the spread of R1b. IMO R1b is a subsequent spread. We have ancient yDNA, admittedly a tiny sample across a big aea. from the period c.3500-3000BC from Italy, southern France and Iberia and none is R1b.I think its best to run with the hard evidence that the spread of copper working across Med. and south Alpine Europe is not linked to R1b.

    I suppose in Italian terms that means I am saying I dont believe R1b was connected to Remedello I and the early copper mines but I am prepared to believe it might well have arrived in Remedello II. In Iberian terms I dont believe it is linked to the Zambujal type groups c. 3100BC and now prefer the idea that it arrived right at the inception of Beaker in the 2700s and indeed beaker culture was a very rapid local outcome of an influx of single burial users.So I am guessing now that P312 is only fractionally pre-beaker in Iberia. So, I dont think P312 or L11 will be found pre-2900BC anywhere east of eastern Europe/the Balkans. If bell beaker is completely unconnected to Corded Ware then the best bet seem steppe to Balkans, then balkans to north Italy/SE France c.2900BC then Iberia in the 2700s.

    Anyone spreading at that time and place was not offering the miracle of metal knowledge as that had preceded them some centuries earlier. IMO its far more likely that groups moving at that time were primarily offering mobility and the ability to establish a network that would provide an outlet for Iberian metals back into the central Med. and then central and northern Europe. It is interesting that around this time RC dates suggest the tailing off of the older mines in northern Italy so that could have been a push factor. I found interesting a paper that said pre-beaker use of copper in Iberia was mundane and non-prestigious because it was too common and easy to get hold of in Iberia. Its value only really came out if it could be shifted out of Iberia to areas less blessed in copper. It seems to me there was mutual benefit and push and pull factors for a mobile central European group to provide an outlet network for older Zambujal copper workers.

    If that sort of concept is near the mark then it is interesting that the earliest part of the network ie the earliest beaker dates outside Iberia seem to be SE France and adjacent Alpine areas in Switzerland and Italy by at least c. 2600BC, the western part of the area where Remedello symbolism is found and also near the area where the failing older Italian mines were located. Now as I said, the whole Med. and Alpine area already had copper working knowledge and skills so it was the creating of a new wider network and implied mobility that was new.

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