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Thread: Surprising Pale pigmentation in Mesolithic Motala HGs

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Motzart View Post
    Very suprising that some of the Motala samples carry the Mongoloid EDAR gene. Those same samples carry MC1R. Maybe acquired from contact with the neighboring N1c Uralic population?
    Don't Motala predate the N1c finds (which are pretty far east anyways)? N1c probably wasn't in Finland or Estonia at the time anyways imo.

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  3. #12
    Motala was WHG + ANE, no? You'd expect North European samples to have some Siberian and East Asian affinities.

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  5. #13
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    But when you average them out, it doesn't look that much different, except for red-hair, because of Motala9 :

    Black Hair :
    EEFs : 33.9%
    SHGs : 28.7%

    Brown hair :
    EEFs : 42%
    SHGs : 38.7%

    Blonde :
    EEFs : 23.3%
    SHGS : 19.4%

    Red-Hair :
    EEFs : 0.9%
    SHGs : 13.2%

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    So what do you reckon they were in terms of overall skin tone? Would be funny if they had red/blond hair and very dark skin . Although it's not unprecedented of course.
    Y-DNA: I1* (Ware, Hertfordshire)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motzart View Post
    Very suprising that some of the Motala samples carry the Mongoloid EDAR gene. Those same samples carry MC1R. Maybe acquired from contact with the neighboring N1c Uralic population?
    Which one is the "Mongoloid EDAR gene"?I have 51 SNPs on gene EDAR (23andMe).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anglecynn View Post
    So what do you reckon they were in terms of overall skin tone? Would be funny if they had red/blond hair and very dark skin . Although it's not unprecedented of course.
    IMO, the redheads had light skin. European redheads have paler skin than other Europeans and non-Euro redheads I'm pretty sure have the same skin tone. Being a redhead usually includes pale skin. Besides the motala hgs had mostly light skin alleles in the snps WHGs do not.

    Although Hirisplex only predicted Motala9 to have red hair, Motala3 had rs1110400 TC and there's a Pashuten member of this forum with that marker and has red hair. The Motalas had a strangely high frequency of depigmentation markers, so I think they were uniquely Albino-like in just about every way.

    I'm imagining primitive small tribes surrounded by a snowy forests with distinct facial features(compared to anyone around today), freckles, a lot of red hair, snow-white skin, and ~100% blue eyes. The Motala HGs are fantasy world material. In Stone age Europe you had very distinct breeds(if you want to call it that) of man living side-by-side for thousands of years, who eventually mixed to create the modern inhabitants. I could see a story being written about this.
    Last edited by Krefter; 03-07-2015 at 09:55 PM.

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  12. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweuro View Post
    But when you average them out, it doesn't look that much different, except for red-hair, because of Motala9 :

    Black Hair :
    EEFs : 33.9%
    SHGs : 28.7%

    Brown hair :
    EEFs : 42%
    SHGs : 38.7%

    Blonde :
    EEFs : 23.3%
    SHGS : 19.4%

    Red-Hair :
    EEFs : 0.9%
    SHGs : 13.2%
    Well the Motala hgs are missing alot of hirisplex snps. If they had those snps some of the predictions could change.

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    Geneticker added more ancient Euros to his phenotype list. The Mesolithic Samara_HG had light skin, blue eyes, and blonde hair. There was a Moatal_HG who had one derived allele in the same blonde-associated SNP. Maybe EHG and SHG were pale and WHG was dark. I'm surprised by these results and we'll have to wait till a published study on the Haak genome's phenotype to confirm this.

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015...storic-europe/

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    The situation appears to be the following:

    EHG:

    Samara: Blue/Light eyed, fair skin, blonde hair.

    Karelia: Brown/Dark eyed, light skin although it could be olive skin given rs16891982 C/G.

    Here is a reconstruction of a Karelian Hunter Gatherer:




    SHG:

    Motala HG I0011-EDAR carrier heterozygous, ancestral for both ASIP mutations, blue/light eyes and likely light/or at least olive skin based on SLC45A2 derived state and not data for SLC24A5.

    Motala HG I0012-EDAR carrier heterozygous, light skin and freckling based on IRF4 derived state, MC1R, rs1805007 heterozygous carrier, light eyes and likely light skin based on SLC24A5/SLC45A2. This guy/gal was likely a red haired person with very fair skin and light eyes.

    Motala HG I0013-light skin and freckling based on IRF4 derived state, MC1R, rs1110400 heterozygous carrier, light eyes and unknown skin color based on ancestral SLC45A2, not data for SLC24A5. This guy/gal probably didn’t express the red hair gene due to the ancestral state on SLC45A2 but could potentially have olive skin since he was derived for the ASIP mutations and IRF4.


    Motala HG I0014-light skin and freckling based on IRF4 derived state, KITLG, rs12821256, blond hair heterozygous carrier, light eyes and light skin based on derived state on SLC24A5 but heterozygous on SLC45A2. This guy/gal probably didn’t express the blonde hair gene due to the heterozygous ancestral state on SLC45A2 but it is still possible he was blonde based on IRF4 derived state.

    Motala HG I0015- light eyes and unknown skin color skin based on ancestral state on SLC24A5 but derived state on SLC45A2. This guy/gal skin color is inconclusive by modern standards, he/she has no info on the IRF4, so he/she is inconclusive for skin color, but definitely blue/light eyed.

    Motala HG I0016-EDAR carrier homozygous, light skin and freckling possible based on IRF4 heterozygous carrier, MC1R, rs1805007 & rs1805008 heterozygous carrier, OCA2, rs1800407 green or hazel eyes heterozygous carrier, light eyes and likely light skin based on SLC45A2 derived state, though SLC24A5 was heterozygous carrier. This guy/gal was likely a red haired person with very fair skin and light eyes.

    Motala HG I0017-EDAR carrier heterozygous, light skin and freckling based on IRF4 derived state, MC1R, rs1805007 & rs1805008 heterozygous carrier, OCA2, rs1800407 green or hazel eyes heterozygous carrier, light eyes and likely light/medium skin based on SLC24A5 derived state, though SLC45A2 was heterozygous carrier. This guy/gal was likely a person with fair/olive skin and light eyes but likely dark hair.


    So we have 2/7 red haired, 1/7 likely blonde haired, blue eyes 7/7 100%. 3/7 had very fair skin, whereas 1/7 had at least olive skin, the other 3 had inconclusive tests.
    Last edited by jeanL; 03-08-2015 at 02:57 AM.

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    BTW if anyone is wondering what an accurate representation of a WHG carrying the ancestral variants for skin color lighting could look like, I think this is a pretty good picture:


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