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Thread: Ancient R1b DNA from Spain

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    Ancient R1b DNA from Spain

    ANCIENT R1B DNA FROM SPAIN

    Dr. Reich's paper shows that an R1b man, who lived in Neolithic Spain (c. 5100 BC), was buried in Els Trocs cave in Northern Aragon. His haplogroup was R1b1, and was ancestral to M269 (Western European R1b), M73 and V88, so, in principle, I could be a patrilineal descendant from him.

    As far as I know, these are the oldest Ancient DNA R1b samples from Western Europe, and they predate in 2.000 years both Yamnaya and the Bell Beaker Culture. In my opinion, R1b was introduced in Spain by Neolithic settlers from the Middle East, and later in expanded to other parts of Western Europe in times of the Bell Beaker Culture.

    The Yamnaya R1b DNA found by doctor Reich belongs overwhilmingly to R1b1a2a2 (Z2103), which is common in the Caucasus, but not in Atlantic Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by r_r_abril View Post
    ANCIENT R1B DNA FROM SPAIN

    Dr. Reich's paper shows that an R1b man, who lived in Neolithic Spain (c. 5100 BC), was buried in Els Trocs cave in Northern Aragon. His haplogroup was R1b1, and was ancestral to M269 (Western European R1b), M73 and V88, so, in principle, I could be a patrilineal descendant from him.

    As far as I know, these are the oldest Ancient DNA R1b samples from Western Europe, and they predate in 2.000 years both Yamnaya and the Bell Beaker Culture. In my opinion, R1b was introduced in Spain by Neolithic settlers from the Middle East, and later in expanded to other parts of Western Europe in times of the Bell Beaker Culture.

    The Yamnaya R1b DNA found by doctor Reich belongs overwhilmingly to R1b1a2a2 (Z2103), which is common in the Caucasus, but not in Atlantic Europe.
    Is V88- confirmed?

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    It isn't at all likely that the El Trocs R1b1 is the ancestor of any Western Europeans, or not very many of them anyway.

    There are a lot of SNPs between R1b1 and L11, and most Western European R1b is L11+. How likely is it that all those SNPs would arise independently in two widely separated locations, Spain and Russia? That is what would have to happen, though, for the El Trocs man to be the ancestor of modern Western Europeans, because we know M269 and L23 were already present in the Samara region by ~3300 BC.

    No, the R1b1 from El Trocs is likely an outlier who somehow ended up in Spain during the Neolithic as part of an Epicardial group. He is not the ancestor of most Western European R1b's.
    Last edited by rms2; 02-12-2015 at 04:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Is V88- confirmed?
    No. The El Trocs R1b1 wasn't tested for V88.

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    Quote Originally Posted by r_r_abril View Post
    ANCIENT R1B DNA FROM SPAIN
    As far as I know, these are the oldest Ancient DNA R1b samples from Western Europe, and they predate in 2.000 years both Yamnaya and the Bell Beaker Culture. In my opinion, R1b was introduced in Spain by Neolithic settlers from the Middle East, and later in expanded to other parts of Western Europe in times of the Bell Beaker Culture.
    It is very unlikely that R1b1 was introduced to Europe by Neolithic Settler from the Middle East unless you mean they mediated the gene flow, untimately R1b1 was found in a Hunter Gatherer sample from Samara, Russia 500 years before the Spanish Neolithic dated to 5500 BC, which makes its status more likely to be one of the Hunter Gatherers that picked up farming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    There are a lot of SNPs between R1b1 and L11, and most Western European R1b is L11+. How likely is it that all those SNPs would arise independently in two widely separated locations, Spain and Russia? That is what would have to happen, though, for the El Trocs man to be the ancestor of modern Western Europeans, because we know M269 and L23 were already present in the Samara region by ~3300 BC.
    The samples from Yamnaya that were 5 R1b-Z2103 and 1-R1b-P297 and 1 R1b-L23(xL51,Z2103), thus R1b-M269 was present as a in the sense that people who carry R1b-Z2103 had to carry R1b-M269 or the guy who carried R1b-L23(xL51,Z2103). Now this is no way and shape dictates that "all those SNPs would have arise independently in two widely separated locations", there is a >2000+ years time gap between Iberian R1b1 and Samara R1b1 and the Yamnaya people, to assume that the mutations should have arise in one place or the other is like assuming that R1b-L21 should have risen in either Iberia or British Isles because today they both have amounts of it, they could have risen in the middle, that my point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    No. The El Trocs R1b1 wasn't tested for V88.
    Seems most likely that he was of that branch though. It spread into North Africa with the Neolithic. One Neolithic route into Iberia was via North Africa.
    Last edited by Jean M; 02-12-2015 at 06:07 PM.

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    Firstly only a massive bit of denial would ignore the whole sequence of SNPs under P25 that are or must have been present in the Yamnaya samples but are absent in the upstream R1b Neolithic Spanish guy. Its absurdly counter-intuitive to ignore all those SNPs. Ludicrous really.

    What the Spanish Neolithic guy shows is that Basal or certainly non-P297 derived men had made it to Iberia in at least low numbers by the early Neolithic. IMO there are two possibilities. Firstly it could be related to a spread towards the end of the Mesolithic by pointed based pot users of the Swifterbant-Ertebolle type tradition seen at Roucadour around the Garrone. If this was genuine diffusion by moving hunters then its not impossible. It could then get into an early farmers around SW France/Iberia in low numbers. However one strike against this is that this guy, I understand, didnt carry ANE which is something I would associate as likely linked to both the pressure microblade groups and the spread of pointed based pottery. That would raise the alternative that it is related to the non-P297 P25 and V88 branch of R1b which probably separated from the northern group way back in the Palaeolithic or at least the early Mesolithic. It tends to be found mostly in SW Asia today so it seem not beyond possibility that this wandering offshoot of the main branch in SW Asia could have ended up in early farmers in the Levant and into the Cardial culture.

    However, although this is interesting this is not related to the whole P297-M269-L23 and onwards sequence which looks very very likely to have happened reasonably near to where all these R1b people have just been found. What this Spanish guy and similar people elsewhere is is the ancestor of some of low number of non-P297 R1b people in western Europe. The danger is that this gives false hope for the uniformed and delusional to waste more of their lives in seeing SW Europe as some very deep time origin for much R1b in Europe today. Its clearly not and anyone still arguing that is coming across very badly. Just to be clear - I dont think JeanL is at all in this group as he is well informed, I respect his deep knowledge and he knows the score- its the uninformed who dont understand the significance of the chains of SNPs being present or absent who will end up wasting their time and coming across as in denial. I wonder if Maju will go with the evidence and Occam's razor or churn out some alternative reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Seems most likely that he was of that branch though. It spread into North Africa with the Neolithic. One Neolithic route into Iberia was via North Africa.
    It does make me wonder then if the basal P343/P25 in SW Asia is a remnant of the pressure microblade using people who seem to have entered places like the Zagrosc. 9500BC and to have slowly spread west though SW Asia to made it to some of the east Med. coasts around 6500BC or so - a late date when it was touch and go whether it would be carried west. Also if V88 then sprang up in that group early enough to be carried west in trace numbers with Cardial. That kind of model would retain the link of R1b -not exclusively of course- with pressure microblades. It also makes sense in that an arrival in SW Asia c. 9500BC is likely to have involved a branching off upstream of P297 based on date alone. Perhaps modest survival of those Zagros hunters in a slightly displaced form explains the Iran concentration of the basal forms of R1b. Maybe the basal R1a too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeanL View Post
    The samples from Yamnaya that were 5 R1b-Z2103 and 1-R1b-P297 and 1 R1b-L23(xL51,Z2103), thus R1b-M269 was present as a in the sense that people who carry R1b-Z2103 had to carry R1b-M269 or the guy who carried R1b-L23(xL51,Z2103). Now this is no way and shape dictates that "all those SNPs would have arise independently in two widely separated locations", there is a >2000+ years time gap between Iberian R1b1 and Samara R1b1 and the Yamnaya people, to assume that the mutations should have arise in one place or the other is like assuming that R1b-L21 should have risen in either Iberia or British Isles because today they both have amounts of it, they could have risen in the middle, that my point.
    I know Alan already answered this, but my point was that the El Trocs R1b1 is not the ancestor of Western Europeans, nor is it likely that the SNPs between R1b1 and L23 arose midway between Spain and Russia. Samara, as you pointed out, produced an R1b1 Mesolithic hunter-gatherer, as well as men who were already derived for M269 and L23, and Samara is closer to the likely source of the original R than Spain is, since 24k year old Mal'ta Boy, who was R*, was recovered near Lake Baikal in Siberia, and Q and R1a are found at decent frequencies not from there either.

    So, it is not at all likely that the El Trocs man produced a y line that independently produced all the SNPs leading to L11 at the same time they were arising in Russia.

    I think more ancient y-dna testing will rout out some L51 in Yamnaya at least.

    BTW, I was not claiming R1b originated somewhere very near or in the Samara region, just that it probably originated somewhere in North Eurasia or perhaps even the Pontic-Caspian steppe.
    Last edited by rms2; 02-12-2015 at 06:58 PM.

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