Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 57

Thread: Stratigraphy of J1 SNPs

  1. #11
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,210
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Italo-Iberian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152>L2>FGC10543
    mtDNA (M)
    H4a1-T152C!

    United States of America Italy 1861-1946 Spain
    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I'd like to see more data about (East) African J1, until that happens I will always get the impression we're missing an important part of J1's history.
    I'll just add that YSC234's age (~5889 yBP) seems to be in line with the breakup of Proto-Semitic around ~5500 yBP, this marker is probably the closest thing we have to a "Semitic clade" within J1 (I'm ready to bet Proto-Semitic speakers carried this marker).
    What is the probability that an early wave of J1 and R1b-V88 men brought Afro-Asiatic languages from Western Asia into Africa?
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to R.Rocca For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (12-16-2014)

  3. #12
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,475
    Sex
    Location
    Brazil
    Ethnicity
    Rio de Janeiro Colonial
    Nationality
    Brazilian
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1a1 FGC6064+ M365+
    mtDNA (M)
    H1ao1a

    Suebi Kingdom Portugal 1143 Portugal 1485 Portugal Order of Christ Brazilian Empire Brazil
    One SNP found in Iran, Arabia, Somalia and Ethiopia is P56 (L136+ and P58-). More investigation is needed in the African J1 SNPs specially in the old times of the "Green Sahara".

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to RCO For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (12-16-2014)

  5. #13
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    4,535
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Jewish & British
    Y-DNA (P)
    J-Z18271
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c5
    Y-DNA (M)
    R-U152
    mtDNA (P)
    U7a5

    Israel Israel Jerusalem United Kingdom England Scotland Isle of Man
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    What is the probability that an early wave of J1 and R1b-V88 men brought Afro-Asiatic languages from Western Asia into Africa?
    I'd say it's quite likely, yet again you'd have to subscribe to a West Asian Urheimat for Proto-AA which is easier said than done.
    Personally, for linguistic reasons as you might guess, I tend to favour an African urheimat (along the shores of the Red Sea, probably NE Sudan-SE Egypt).
    But it's still too early to tell, I keep repeating this because it's true: If we're still able to find people ready to disagree regarding PIE's Pontic-Caspian steppe urheimat despite several centuries of research and empirical evidence, I'd say it's quite possible no consensus will emerge on the PAA urheimat's location in our lifetime especially considering the fact that Afroasiatic studies are in their infancy (and that's a mild way of putting it).
    You must remember that PAA might probably be well over 12,000 kya old (at least), I'm sure you'll agree this makes PIE look like a toddler so you can only imagine the problems associated to such an early breakup date (but we're always up for a challenge)... So there's that.

    Eventually, if a West Asian (Natufian?) urheimat is favoured, R-V88, J1 and T-M70 are the driving force, these are major AA lineages after all (alongside E-M35.1 and its subclades). If not, it doesn't really change much in regards to the aforementioned lineages, which remain quite common in AA speakers. The main issue here is whether pastoralism speeded up the breakup of AA and eased the dissemination of its branches. The answer, in most cases, is yes. Now, that's where things get trickier since some will claim that pastoralism emerged independently in Africa... However, this claim is quite inconclusive and based on wobbly (if not counter-intuitive) reasoning and evidence. It isn't, by any means, a stretch to assume that pastoralism in Africa is a West Asian innovation. One can easily picture a migration from West Asia with the aforementionned lineages making their first (massive) appearance on the African continent. This means that if an African urheimat is assumed, these lineages still might've been involved since Afroasiatic's early stages.
    Regarding J1 in particular (and what I'm about to say also counts for T-M70), I'd be very surprised if the only AA branch tied to its spread is Semitic. Plaster's paper reported very J high frequencies in Northern Omotic speakers (Shekecho, Kefa & Yem) and Cushitic speakers (Afar & Agew), most of which can already be assumed to be J1. This is very significant because we're dealing with important branches of the AA family, including a basal one according to most phylogenies (Omotic).
    Then, as I said earlier, we have these interesting J1 cases in the Canary islands, which could potentially be of Guanche origin (or not), coupled with the presence of J1 in pre-hispanic Guanche samples the case for J1's involvement in the spread of AA since some of its earliest stages is quite strong indeed.
    There are some J1 subclades in Southern Arabia (L92.1 and P56) which seem to have been associated with a non-Semitic AA language, for instance (Para-Cushitic or Cushitic proper might be worth considering).

    J1 in East Africa (discarding Sudan) could potentially be very diverse, and this has important consequences if we are to make an accurate assessment of this lineage's spread.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 12-16-2014 at 02:16 AM.
    מְכֹרֹתַיִךְ וּמֹלְדֹתַיִךְ מֵאֶרֶץ הַכְּנַעֲנִי אָבִיךְ הָאֱמֹרִי וְאִמֵּךְ חִתִּית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-

    אֲרֵי יִצְרָא לִבָּא דַּאֲנָשָׁא בִּישׁ מִזְּעוּרֵיהּ
    בראשית פרק ח כא-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to Agamemnon For This Useful Post:

     R.Rocca (12-16-2014)

  7. #14
    Registered Users
    Posts
    10
    Sex
    Location
    istanbul
    Nationality
    Turkish
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1B-Z2223 (ZS50)
    mtDNA (M)
    U2D
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1B-PF7580

    Turkey Iran Safavid Empire Iran Sassanid Empire AchaemenidEmpire1 AchaemenidEmpire2
    This year was very poor for Y6304 (F1614,F3249) . There wasn't any new participant. I hope in 2015 there will be some. It's so old and widespread, we can't figure it out except its origin. RCO thanks for the informations. Are there another news about that SNP? Thanks Happy New Year

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to quxuq For This Useful Post:

     RCO (12-29-2014)

  9. #15
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,475
    Sex
    Location
    Brazil
    Ethnicity
    Rio de Janeiro Colonial
    Nationality
    Brazilian
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1a1 FGC6064+ M365+
    mtDNA (M)
    H1ao1a

    Suebi Kingdom Portugal 1143 Portugal 1485 Portugal Order of Christ Brazilian Empire Brazil
    Thanks Quxuq, Happy New Year ! Yes, I think only professional geneticists organized in scientific institutions related to the field of population genetics can test a large quantity of different basal types of J1 in Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Armenia, the Caucasus and the Caspian shores. I was expecting new articles about the history of all major haplogroups in that important region related to the evolution of the principal Western Eurasian basal SNPs with the new NGS technologies for this year (2014) but no new article was published and only our private effort testing our own J1 types could elucidate the structure of the J1 phylogenetic tree, so let's wait for new articles for the next year !

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to RCO For This Useful Post:

     quxuq (01-18-2015)

  11. #16
    Junior Member
    Posts
    2
    Sex
    Location
    Săo Paulo, Brasil
    Ethnicity
    Iranian
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1-P56

    I am interested in this thread as I have a J1-P56 ydna, I feel the p56 strain is almost non existent in the dna community. I appear to be the only one at least on family tree dna that has p56 with an iranian ancestry. There appears to be one other from Saudi Arabia and another from Ethiopia. As far as I know the strain originated somewhere in today's kurdistan, and emigrated south around arabia and eventually into ethiopia, perhaps my ancestors split off into iran before the rest continued down to africa. But either way my father's line goes back to Zoroastrians living in Yazd with no muslim or arabic traditions. The dna picture is a bit complicated in Iran as the country is built on the premise that we have one ethnicity or race, namely arians, yet it appears that genetically the country is quite diverse, I would assume that there must have been a lot of mixing or that the designation of arian does not pertain to actual race but to being part of the clan or tribe.

  12. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to busta3396 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (01-12-2015),  Arbogan (01-12-2015),  DMXX (01-12-2015),  Nasser (06-19-2015),  paulgill (06-21-2015),  Táltos (01-11-2015)

  13. #17
    Registered Users
    Posts
    7
    Sex
    Nationality
    Serb
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1-PF7263

    Hello everyone,

    Relatively recently I have tested my y-dna (37 markers), and it seems that I am J1 PF7263. I googled a bit and didn't find almost anything on this SNP. It seems that this SNP is very rare. I have joined J1 ftdna project, and the administrator of the project put my results into the Cluster A, with a man from Ersen, Germany, and with a man from the USA D.March, whom I contacted and he says that his origins are from ex-Yu. He forgot his original surname, and it seems that it was Jaković (according to some military documents of his grandfather at the beginning of the 20.c). The place of origin is probably Dubica, in present Bosnia & Herzegowina. We match on 33/37 markers, and all of these 4 markers are fast mutating. Viktar, from the J1 project, estimates that Jakovic and me had common ancestor 350-550 years ago. Common ancestor with man from Germany lived however more than 1800y. ago. I have also joined serbian dna project (because I am a Serb) and have found two more men who tested only 12 markers, but we match on all of them. These families are Radonjić and Ružić. This is important, and I will later explain why.

    I can trace my ancestry back to y.1712 when my ancestor Lazar Šepa was conscripted by the authorities of Habzburg empire in the village of Velika Popina, in Lika, present day Croatia. His close relatives are also conscripted in Dalmatia, village Đevrske, by Venetians in 1709. They were presummably the part of so called Vlachs, or Morlaks groups of nomads, which settled in Dalmatia and Lika one and a half centuries ago. I have even found some documents, which are probably related to them, in which says that morlak katuns (big families) including Radonić and Ružić where settled nearby Šibenik, in Dalmatia, in 1550s. They came with Turks, and presumably originate from present Herzegowina, or the sounthern parts of Serbia, where many Vlachs lived before the Turks increased pressaure against Bosnian and Croatian states, at the end of 15.century. This caused great movement of Vlachs, which were at that time almost all serbian-speaking (they were in centuries before that time almost completely slavizied - serbized) and greek-orthodox. From all of this I can assume that my paternal ancestors didn't belong to the Slavic people which came to the Balkan in 6th century and later, but belonged to one of the preslavic groups of people inhabiting Balkan peninsula. These preslavic groups are mostly characterized by haplogroups E, G, or J2, and within them J1 is very rare among Serbs. On Serbian DNA Project there are only 8 J1 (out of more then 600 tested), and 4 of them (including american March-Jakovic) are PF 7263 and the other 4 are other branches of J1, very distant from PF 7263.

    So I can with more or less certainty follow my origin 500y. ago. What is mystery for me is this happlogruop J1, and what puzzles me even more is this very rare SNP PF7263. On J1 project I have noticed that this SNP have people from varios parts of the world: Germany, Ukraine, France, Greece, Italy, Spain, Canarias island, England and even one Arabian, whose place of origin I couldnt find. According to Viktar and his J1 tree, our common ancestor lived some 3500y.ago (for the entire PF 7263). It is important to emphasise that some of these people are Jewish, or of Jewisch ancestry.

    All of these people are more than 2200.y. ago distant from me except for the man from Germany (cca 1800y) and these Serbs which are all less then 600y distant.

    I wonder whether this group was originally Jewish, and how it ended in Balkan (and in the all other parts of the world)? I wonder if is it possible that one of my distant ancestors was hellenized Romanioti Jew? Or maybe my specific branch of PF 7263 came even before to Balkan? All Jews in group are more then 2200y distant from me, and it is possible that they converted to Judaisam one or two centuries b.c., and my ancestor didn't, but came to Balkan.

    Any suggestions, I would like to hear.

    Thanks!

  14. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to ljiljanm For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (01-12-2015),  Arbogan (01-12-2015),  DMXX (01-12-2015),  palamede (01-13-2015)

  15. #18
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,737
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R2a*-M124 (L295-)
    mtDNA (M)
    D4j5*

    Quote Originally Posted by busta3396 View Post
    I am interested in this thread as I have a J1-P56 ydna, I feel the p56 strain is almost non existent in the dna community. I appear to be the only one at least on family tree dna that has p56 with an iranian ancestry. There appears to be one other from Saudi Arabia and another from Ethiopia. As far as I know the strain originated somewhere in today's kurdistan, and emigrated south around arabia and eventually into ethiopia, perhaps my ancestors split off into iran before the rest continued down to africa. But either way my father's line goes back to Zoroastrians living in Yazd with no muslim or arabic traditions. The dna picture is a bit complicated in Iran as the country is built on the premise that we have one ethnicity or race, namely arians, yet it appears that genetically the country is quite diverse, I would assume that there must have been a lot of mixing or that the designation of arian does not pertain to actual race but to being part of the clan or tribe.
    You are basically correct. Several layers of propaganda and folklore in recent times have contributed to misunderstandings regarding the heritage constitution in Iran among both natives and outsiders. It was only the Achaemanid (Haxamaneshian) Persians - specifically Darius the Great - who referred to himself as having "Aryan lineage". Other ethnonyms took prominence in the Iranian speaking world beyond this point, although "Aryan" continued as a national designation through "Iran" from the Parthian era onwards. Those alive in the 20's-40's (particularly the middle-upper class) became wedded to the specific notions of "Aryan ancestry" peddled by the Third Reich in an era of Eurocentric thought. Those notions are unfortunately very common still among modern Iranians, a direct result of Reza Shah's own fixation with Iran's "Aryanness".

    It does appear that the Iranian plateau was unevenly influenced by different groups from the Iranian migrations onwards. Given the predominance of certain Y-DNA, mtDNA and autosomal motifs across the plateau, those influences don't appear to be marked. Aryan ancestry aside, it doesn't look like modern Iranians irrespective of ethno-linguistic ties have changed very much since ancient times. Azeri Iranians, for instance, are clearly mostly "native" to Iran and derive only a small portion of their/our genetic background from the Oghuz.

    The Aryans were but a single layer on the Iranian plateau's genetic landscape and the ethnonym itself is but a vestigial relic maintained solely within the country by its name. Based on Y-DNA R1a1a frequencies, it does appear as if the northern (particularly the northeastern) portions received the most ancestry. Some Iranians have a highly significant pull towards Central Asia (f.ex. NK19191, myself and some Kurds consistently plot as a near-even mix of Near-Eastern and Central Asian), whereas others don't. There appears to be some degree of variation within regions as well. Aside from this, the ancestral patterns in Iran follow geographical trends above all else. All of the above is based on accumulative knowledge acquired from a combination of anecdotal and study results in the absence of ancient DNA (aDNA), opening the (narrow) possibility the above premise is inherently false in at least one major juncture.

    Baibars has done some extensive research on these patterns; if he makes an appearance, I'll gladly split this tangent into a dedicated thread for him to discuss his findings. Otherwise, I'll bow out and allow the Y-DNA J1 discussions to continue in earnest.

  16. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to DMXX For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (01-12-2015),  busta3396 (01-12-2015),  NK19191 (01-28-2015),  parasar (01-12-2015),  paulgill (06-21-2015),  Sangarius (01-12-2015)

  17. #19
    Registered Users
    Posts
    645
    Sex
    Location
    In the tent of Abu kadreh
    Ethnicity
    Kassitic acolyte
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1a1b1a1(J-PF7263)
    mtDNA (M)
    J2b1

    Quote Originally Posted by busta3396 View Post
    I am interested in this thread as I have a J1-P56 ydna, I feel the p56 strain is almost non existent in the dna community. I appear to be the only one at least on family tree dna that has p56 with an iranian ancestry. There appears to be one other from Saudi Arabia and another from Ethiopia. As far as I know the strain originated somewhere in today's kurdistan, and emigrated south around arabia and eventually into ethiopia, perhaps my ancestors split off into iran before the rest continued down to africa. But either way my father's line goes back to Zoroastrians living in Yazd with no muslim or arabic traditions. The dna picture is a bit complicated in Iran as the country is built on the premise that we have one ethnicity or race, namely arians, yet it appears that genetically the country is quite diverse, I would assume that there must have been a lot of mixing or that the designation of arian does not pertain to actual race but to being part of the clan or tribe.
    I'm also J1 with the PF7263 mutation, although unlike you, I'm a lor-kurd from Ilam. I've yet to find any useful information about the mutation itself. It seems to be related to Jews in europe, and assorted ethnicities in west-asia. It also, I suspect is common amongst my tribe, alot of J1 on the male-lineage(although I have no way of confirming it, until more people get extensive Y-DNA testing). I'm glad you've decided to post here, this way we can keep ourselves updated if there is any new info. Personally from what I've observed it seems to be a lesser branch of the J1, that emerged during the neolithic. Unlike J1* (which is associated with northern-mesopotamia and anatolia) it has it's coalescence further south. It seems to be related to the split between desert nomads that came to be Arabs and various other ancient tribes, as they moved further down south(signified by the p58 branch) and a related group of neolithics that stayed in the Zagros range and the Levant regions(P56). p58 seems much more common amongst Afro-asiatic speakers and people who've been in-contact with west-Asian desert nomads for a longer time. While P56 is totally understudied.
    Last edited by Arbogan; 01-12-2015 at 07:40 PM.

  18. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Arbogan For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (01-12-2015),  busta3396 (01-12-2015),  DMXX (01-12-2015),  NK19191 (01-28-2015)

  19. #20
    Registered Users
    Posts
    660
    Sex
    Location
    England
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a10a

    United States of America England
    I would get a second opinion on the Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor between you and similar cases by using the easy calculator at http://dna-project.clan-donald-usa.org/tmrca.htm

  20. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to J1 DYS388=13 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (01-12-2015),  Tomenable (07-01-2015)

Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Help with SNPS please
    By Nqp15hhu in forum FTDNA
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-10-2019, 11:16 AM
  2. 90,000+ SNPs discovered by FGC
    By FGC Corp in forum Full Genomes
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-01-2019, 10:44 PM
  3. Yfull: Shared SNPs vs Assumed Shared SNPs?
    By Dibran in forum R1a-Z283
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 05-26-2018, 12:29 AM
  4. 23andme v5 Y-DNA SNPs
    By ArmandoR1b in forum 23andMe
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 10-20-2017, 07:13 AM
  5. What SNPs to test?
    By brygian in forum I1-M253
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 09-01-2014, 06:06 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •