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Thread: Bell Beakers, Gimbutas and R1b

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    By way of pulling this thread back on topic, compare these excerpts from Olalde et al's The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe, page 3, and Gimbutas' The Civilization of the Goddess, pages 390 and 401.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olalde et al
    However, human migration did have an important role in the further dissemination of the Beaker Complex, which we document most clearly in Britain using data from 80 newly reported individuals dating to 3900–1200 BCE. British Neolithic farmers were genetically similar to contemporary populations in continental Europe and in particular to Neolithic Iberians, suggesting that a portion of the farmer ancestry in Britain came from the Mediterranean rather than the Danubian route of farming expansion. Beginning with the Beaker period, and continuing through the Bronze Age, all British individuals harboured high proportions of Steppe ancestry and were genetically closely related to Beaker-associated individuals from the Lower Rhine area. We use these observations to show that the spread of the Beaker Complex to Britain was mediated by migration from the continent that replaced >90% of Britain’s Neolithic gene pool within a few hundred years, continuing the process that brought Steppe ancestry into central and northern Europe 400 years earlier.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marija Gimbutas
    The Bell Beaker culture of western Europe which diffused between 2500 and 2100 B.C. between central Europe, the British Isles, and the Iberian Peninsula, could not have arisen in a vacuum. The mobile horse-riding and warrior people who buried their dead in Yamna type kurgans certainly could not have developed out of any west European culture . . .

    4. The warlike and horse-riding Bell Beaker people of the middle and second half of the third millennium B.C., who diffused over western Europe, are likely to have originated from an amalgam of remnants of the Vucedol people with the Yamna colonists (after Wave No. 3) in Yugoslavia and Hungary. Their parent culture is called Vinkovci-Samogyvar. This was the largest and last outmigration, from east-central Europe into western Europe, up to the west Mediterranean and the British Isles, before the onset of a more stable period, and the formation of Bronze Age cultural units.

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     jdean (11-11-2017)

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    The Latvian P297s are cool, but they all lived at least 4,000 years after the mrca of P297 was born. They tell us that some P297 had gotten as far west as the Baltic in NE Europe 9,000 years ago. They don't really tell us where P297 came from and they certainly do not tell us that all individuals carrying P297 differed from their R and R1 ancestors in lacking ANE.

    Villabruna was not P297 at a time when individuals who were P297 had long been in existence, so his relevance to subsequent European and Asian R1b-P297 descended individuals is not great. He is even less help in telling us where P297 came from than the Latvians are.
    Curious summing up of evidence.

    We have have - L754 (~ a basal state to P297) in southern Europe, at just the approx. point in time when P297 was 'emerging', and the East Baltic was being colonized from the Epi-Gravettian parts of Europe.
    I'd call that a smoking gun if I've ever seen one
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 11-11-2017 at 11:24 PM.

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     jeanL (11-11-2017)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    How is that irrelevant ?
    Where did you see the word irrelevant in my post? I said Villabruna's relevance for "subsequent European and Asian R1b-P297 descended individuals is not great". Not irrelevant, but not very relevant, since he was not P297 himself and P297 had been in existence for over a thousand years when Villabruna was born.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    We have have - L754 (~ a basal state to P297) in southern Europe, at just the approx. point in time when P297 was 'emerging', and the East Baltic was being colonized from the Epi-Gravettian parts of Europe.
    Villabruna was not P297 and was born over a thousand years after the mrca of P297. He represents a distantly related, xP297 dead end line that evidently died off just north of the headwaters of the Adriatic.
    Last edited by Administrator; 11-12-2017 at 01:13 AM. Reason: Please keep things civil, gentlemen.

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     Jean M (11-14-2017)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Haha
    Anti-R1b ? You wish.
    I'm just anti - BS of the wilfully ignorant / cognitively dissonant

    But I'll leave you to your circle jerk
    Not much of an argument. More childish name calling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Haha more lies by RMS2 because he doesn't have the brain to debate with facts, so he brings out his Alex Jonesian PTSD anti-R1b rather rubbish .
    Please substantiate your claims then...

    Anti-R1b ? You wish.
    I'm just anti - BS of the wilfully ignorant / cognitively dissonant

    But I'll leave you to your circle jerk
    Better to reply to the updated version: it's brilliant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Not much of an argument. More childish name calling.
    But please, qualify your claims- where I my anti-R1b statements ?
    You mean because I suggested it came from south Europe ?
    Last edited by Administrator; 11-12-2017 at 01:17 AM. Reason: Offending portions of post edited.

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     jeanL (11-11-2017)

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    Quote Originally Posted by GailT View Post
    I think we are arguing about the details of the migrations of R1b, early migrations that perhaps died out or are now extremely rare, versus the much later migrations that came to dominate western Europe. The scenario Jean M describes seems consistent with the ancient and modern DNA evidence currently available, so maybe you can describe specifically where you disagree?
    Most of my disagreements are clearly explained in my replies; which you clearly did not bother reading! Why doesn't Miss Manco explain to all us how can R1b have arrived in NE Europe with the pressure microblades with the Ancient DNA record showing R1b1a in European soil millennia before the arrival of the pressure Microblades.

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    I think I will avoid responding to your incendiary, ad hominem attacks from now on, Gravetto-Danubian. I'm not sure why my posts anger you so easily, but now you have accused me of being a racist, a liar, having insufficient brain power and of venerating something I'm not sure of.

    I am surprised to learn that southern Europeans belong to a "race" separate from my own. That never occurred to me.

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     Jean M (11-14-2017)

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I think I will avoid responding to your incendiary, ad hominem attacks from now on, Gravetto-Danubian. I'm not sure why my posts anger you so easily, but now you have accused me of being a racist, a liar, having insufficient brain power and of venerating something I'm not sure of.

    I am surprised to learn that southern Europeans belong to a "race" separate from my own. That never occurred to me.
    I believe i answered your question already. You are unable to mount an argument based on fact, so you then bury the conversations in false accusations of anti -R1b phobia. I make no joke when I say this must stem from years bygone, from when I wasnt even in the blogosphere. This is not the first time you've done it, either. In fact, you seem to give every new person the third degree on "what haplogroups are you?" as if everyone is a petty tribalist.
    So when you engage in blatant lies and mis accusation, don't expect roses.
    Anyhow , my apologies ; I'll let you get back to BB
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 11-12-2017 at 12:35 AM. Reason: You

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    I believe i answered your question already. You are unable to mount an argument based on fact, so you then bury the conversations in false accusations of anti -R1b phobia. I make no joke when I say this must stem from years bygone, from when I wasnt even in the blogosphere. So when you engage in blatant lies and mis accusation, don't expect roses.
    I trust you read my post.

    Here it is.

    Do I need to repeat that Villabruna was NOT P297 at a time when P297 was already in existence for over a thousand years? That is a fact.

    You said you would leave me to my veneration (whatever that meant), so I responded in kind and left you to what I think troubles you. That set you off, evidently.

    You followed up with childish personal attacks that are all groundless.

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