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Thread: U5b1b1a1 Sami/Saami?

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    J Man
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    U5b1b1a1 Sami/Saami?

    Is mtDNA haplogroup U5b1b1a1 an indicator of Sami/Saami maternal line ancestry? I am talking right down to the subclade level here ''U5b1b1a1'' not the parent haplogroup ''U5b1b1a''. The extra ''1'' at the end obviously means a more downstream mutation. U5b1b1a1 seems to be rather limited to the Sami people and Finns. So I wonder if it's presence among Finns indicates old admixture with Sami people?

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    Hi. My father's family is from Finland and his mtDNA is U5b1b1a1, which I understand from 23andme.com that it is Sami. We didn't know this from family records.

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  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by jewelsie View Post
    Hi. My father's family is from Finland and his mtDNA is U5b1b1a1, which I understand from 23andme.com that it is Sami. We didn't know this from family records.
    Very interesting indeed. I am not completely sure if all of U5b1b1a1a around in Finland has a Sami origin or not. I think there is a good chance that most lineages do though.

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    There are three lines in haplogroup U5b1b1a, saami,finn, rus. Very many norwegian, swedish and finnish saami maternal lineages have this category finn (saami motif is 3395, finn 16129, rus 1341 and 15314. In tis tree there is another U5b1b1a1 saami -group with motives 1850, 16148 and 16335.

    http://www.plosone.org/article/fetch...e.0010285.s002

    I do not know if there is coming a new category in this group Finn (-saami), motif 16129. I wish somebody could tell.
    Last edited by jouko157; 04-05-2015 at 04:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jouko157 View Post
    There are three lines in haplogroup U5b1b1a, saami,finn, rus. Very many norwegian, swedish and finnish saami maternal lineages have this category finn (saami motif is 3395, finn 16129, rus 1341 and 15314. In tis tree there is another U5b1b1a1 saami -group with motives 1850, 16148 and 16335.

    http://www.plosone.org/article/fetch...e.0010285.s002

    I do not know if there is coming a new category in this group Finn (-saami), motif 16129. I wish somebody could tell.
    It is quite clear that all of the samples under 16144 share a rather recent common ancestress. Recent as in the last 2000 years or so.

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    I have some information of four kits in this haplogroup U5b1b1a1. I can't send PM yet ( must have 10 posts in order to send PM's).

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    The Saami language developed in Finland and is a close relative of Finnish. They both spring from West Finnic.

    Three years ago GailT posted:

    We currently have 113 FMS test results from Finland (including the samples from the 1000 Genomes Project). It is interesting that there is very little diversity in the Finnish U5 distribution, especially when considering U5b. Nearly 40% of the Finnish U5 are in U5b1b1a (the "Saami motif").
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ity-in-Finland

    Subsequently U5b1b1a (T16144C) has been found in populations other than Saami. For example a paper last year found:

    Siberian U5b mtDNAs clustered into subclade U5b1b1a, characterized by "Saami-specific” mutation at np 16144, together with Saami, Finns, Russians, Belarusians and Slovaks. Molecular dating results (3.7-4.9 kya) suggest a relatively recent arrival of the U5b1b1a lineage into Siberia.
    http://www.biomedcentral.com/content...014-0217-9.pdf

    So T16144C is not really Saami-specific. It would be good to know whether the downstream U5b1b1a1 (C4059T) is Sami/Saami-specific. It was found in a Saami of Sweden. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/nuccore/DQ902696
    And another Saami : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/nuccore/AY882404
    Last edited by Jean M; 04-08-2015 at 12:59 PM.

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    It is difficult to determine a person's ethnic origins based on mtDNA for a couple of reasons - a person could have 90% Saami ancestry but not have Saami ancestry on the direct maternal line, so an autosomal DNA test is more useful for ethnic origins. It's also difficult to be certain which mtDNA lineages were present among the Saami in the past. U5b1b1a almost certainly was present because it is the dominant haplogroup today, but it is very likely that other haplogroups including other branches of U5 were also present at lower frequency. There might be subclades of U5b1b1a that are specific to the Saami, and U5b1b1a1 is a possibility, but there are several people in U5b1b1a1 from Finland who don't specify if they have Saami ancestry, so it might be difficult to say if this group originated in the Saami or in a common ancestor of Saami and Finns. There is also the problem of the slow mtDNA mutation rate which makes it difficult to use mtDNA to identify differentiation of population groups in the last few thousand years. I think the best one can say is that not all U5 are Saami and not all Saami are U5. Family histories and paper records (and perhaps autosomal DNA?) are much more reliable for identifying Saami ancestry.

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    Have a feeling that GailT intended to post here, but put this on the new papers discussion thread: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post78238

    It is difficult to determine a person's ethnic origins based on mtDNA for a couple of reasons - a person could have 90% Saami ancestry but not have Saami ancestry on the direct maternal line, so an autosomal DNA test is more useful for ethnic origins. It's also difficult to be certain which mtDNA lineages were present among the Saami in the past. U5b1b1a almost certainly was present because it is the dominant haplogroup today, but it is very likely that other haplogroups including other branches of U5 were also present at lower frequency. There might be subclades of U5b1b1a that are specific to the Saami, and U5b1b1a1 is a possibility, but there are several people in U5b1b1a1 from Finland who don't specify if they have Saami ancestry, so it might be difficult to say if this group originated in the Saami or in a common ancestor of Saami and Finns. There is also the problem of the slow mtDNA mutation rate which makes it difficult to use mtDNA to identify differentiation of population groups in the last few thousand years. I think the best one can say is that not all U5 are Saami and not all Saami are U5. Family histories and paper records (and perhaps autosomal DNA?) are much more reliable for identifying Saami ancestry.

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    U5b1b1a could be a haplogroup that was running around east Europe 4,000YBP and became a founder effect lineage in the Saami. It probably isn't Saami-specific at all, just it was first noticed a high numbers in Saami.

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