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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Supposedly Reich is bringing 3/4 of Corded Ware from Yamna:
    Posted at Eurogenes Blog http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/0...lf-of-our.html
    Let’s wait for some details of their analysis. I wonder whether they were indeed able to rule out any pre-Yamna steppe contribution to Corded Ware, and if so, how they’ve done it.

    BTW, the most recent meta-analysis of the radiocarbon dates for different subgroupings of CWC (and also for TRB and GAC) suggests that the North-Eastern part of the Central European CWC horizon is the earliest one and predates not only the Southern (including North Carpathian) groups of CWC but also the first Yamna groupings present in the Western part of the North Pontic region. When considering these dates as reliable (and I still have some doubts about it), this would rule out the scenario in which the Western Yamna population entered the Central European forest zone either through the Upper Dniester-Northern Carpathian region or by migrating from the Danubian region northward. This would also suggest that the only way any steppe groups could have entered the forest zone and transform themselves into CWC is the Middle Dnieper region (not covered by the above-mentioned analysis). Not surprisngly, this was also the scenario initially suggested by Gimbutas. It should be noted, that although the available radiocarbon dates for the CWC-related Middle Dnieper culture are surprisingly young (starting from 2600-2500 BC at best), these are the dates for the so-called middle stage of MDC only, while no radiocarbon dates for the earliest phase of MDC are available. Also, the above dates for the middle stage of MDC are younger than the radiocarbon dates for some Ukrainian/Carpathian CWC sites that show apparent MDC influence, which suggests that MDC itself must be significantly older. This is indeed consistent with at least some age estimates based on the comparative analysis of some pottery types (and other “datable” features) that indicate MDC started about 3250 BC. When taken together, this may indicate that the very early stage of the Middle Dnieper culture was the predecessor of the CWC culture that was slightly evolving while migrating mostly north-west (towards the South-East Baltic region and Northern Poland), and south-east (towards the Northern Carpathian region) while initially avoiding the fertile soils in Central Poland that were occupied by the GAC people representing a quite similar semi-pastoral way of life.

    If this hypothetical scenario is confirmed, it would be interesting to know what percentage of the Early MDC population was derived from the pre-Yamna (Repin?) or even Early East Yamna steppe migrants, as opposed to the “local” forest and forest-steppe population of the ”Late Dnieper-Donets” culture (also known as Dnieper-Donets III) that represented that part of the Dnieper-Donets II culture that avoided inclusion into the expanding Sredny Stog culture (with Sredny Stog possibly being a results of some strong foreign influences) by migrating northward into the forest zone. The subsequent decline of Dnieper-Donets III roughly coincided with the emergence of the “corded” Middle Dnieper culture, but it is hard to assess whether this transformation process was a result of a local development or rather a “massive” migration from the steppe (or maybe both, as these two groupings were probably distantly related to each other, showing Early Dnieper-Donets ancestry in both cases).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    Let’s wait for some details of their analysis. I wonder whether they were indeed able to rule out any pre-Yamna steppe contribution to Corded Ware, and if so, how they’ve done it.

    BTW, the most recent meta-analysis of the radiocarbon dates for different subgroupings of CWC (and also for TRB and GAC) suggests that the North-Eastern part of the Central European CWC horizon is the earliest one and predates not only the Southern (including North Carpathian) groups of CWC but also the first Yamna groupings present in the Western part of the North Pontic region. When considering these dates as reliable (and I still have some doubts about it), this would rule out the scenario in which the Western Yamna population entered the Central European forest zone either through the Upper Dniester-Northern Carpathian region or by migrating from the Danubian region northward. This would also suggest that the only way any steppe groups could have entered the forest zone and transform themselves into CWC is the Middle Dnieper region (not covered by the above-mentioned analysis). Not surprisngly, this was also the scenario initially suggested by Gimbutas. It should be noted, that although the available radiocarbon dates for the CWC-related Middle Dnieper culture are surprisingly young (starting from 2600-2500 BC at best), these are the dates for the so-called middle stage of MDC only, while no radiocarbon dates for the earliest phase of MDC are available. Also, the above dates for the middle stage of MDC are younger than the radiocarbon dates for some Ukrainian/Carpathian CWC sites that show apparent MDC influence, which suggests that MDC itself must be significantly older. This is indeed consistent with at least some age estimates based on the comparative analysis of some pottery types (and other “datable” features) that indicate MDC started about 3250 BC. When taken together, this may indicate that the very early stage of the Middle Dnieper culture was the predecessor of the CWC culture that was slightly evolving while migrating mostly north-west (towards the South-East Baltic region and Northern Poland), and south-east (towards the Northern Carpathian region) while initially avoiding the fertile soils in Central Poland that were occupied by the GAC people representing a quite similar semi-pastoral way of life.

    If this hypothetical scenario is confirmed, it would be interesting to know what percentage of the Early MDC population was derived from the pre-Yamna (Repin?) or even Early East Yamna steppe migrants, as opposed to the “local” forest and forest-steppe population of the ”Late Dnieper-Donets” culture (also known as Dnieper-Donets III) that represented that part of the Dnieper-Donets II culture that avoided inclusion into the expanding Sredny Stog culture (with Sredny Stog possibly being a results of some strong foreign influences) by migrating northward into the forest zone. The subsequent decline of Dnieper-Donets III roughly coincided with the emergence of the “corded” Middle Dnieper culture, but it is hard to assess whether this transformation process was a result of a local development or rather a “massive” migration from the steppe (or maybe both, as these two groupings were probably distantly related to each other, showing Early Dnieper-Donets ancestry in both cases).
    I do think Yamnaya does tend to be overfocussed on in terms of steppe history. It is quite possible PIE even by a strict definition existed for at least a couple of centuries before Yamnaya and archaic proto PIE was probably around since the 4000s and IMO possibly widespread across the western steppe with a Balkans offshoot rather than just in the Yamnaya heartland.

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    The concept that Yamnaya genetically is a mixture of steppe hunters and SW Asians does remind me somewhat of the theory that IE has the characteristics of a Uralic type language with a Caucasian type major structural influence. The phenomenon of one language providing most vocab but another effecting the structural aspects is well known. Insular Celtic may be an example of this for example and it has also been suggested for English.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    Let’s wait for some details of their analysis. I wonder whether they were indeed able to rule out any pre-Yamna steppe contribution to Corded Ware, and if so, how they’ve done it.

    BTW, the most recent meta-analysis of the radiocarbon dates for different subgroupings of CWC (and also for TRB and GAC) suggests that the North-Eastern part of the Central European CWC horizon is the earliest one and predates not only the Southern (including North Carpathian) groups of CWC but also the first Yamna groupings present in the Western part of the North Pontic region. When considering these dates as reliable (and I still have some doubts about it), this would rule out the scenario in which the Western Yamna population entered the Central European forest zone either through the Upper Dniester-Northern Carpathian region or by migrating from the Danubian region northward. This would also suggest that the only way any steppe groups could have entered the forest zone and transform themselves into CWC is the Middle Dnieper region (not covered by the above-mentioned analysis). Not surprisngly, this was also the scenario initially suggested by Gimbutas. It should be noted, that although the available radiocarbon dates for the CWC-related Middle Dnieper culture are surprisingly young (starting from 2600-2500 BC at best), these are the dates for the so-called middle stage of MDC only, while no radiocarbon dates for the earliest phase of MDC are available. Also, the above dates for the middle stage of MDC are younger than the radiocarbon dates for some Ukrainian/Carpathian CWC sites that show apparent MDC influence, which suggests that MDC itself must be significantly older. This is indeed consistent with at least some age estimates based on the comparative analysis of some pottery types (and other “datable” features) that indicate MDC started about 3250 BC. When taken together, this may indicate that the very early stage of the Middle Dnieper culture was the predecessor of the CWC culture that was slightly evolving while migrating mostly north-west (towards the South-East Baltic region and Northern Poland), and south-east (towards the Northern Carpathian region) while initially avoiding the fertile soils in Central Poland that were occupied by the GAC people representing a quite similar semi-pastoral way of life.

    If this hypothetical scenario is confirmed, it would be interesting to know what percentage of the Early MDC population was derived from the pre-Yamna (Repin?) or even Early East Yamna steppe migrants, as opposed to the “local” forest and forest-steppe population of the ”Late Dnieper-Donets” culture (also known as Dnieper-Donets III) that represented that part of the Dnieper-Donets II culture that avoided inclusion into the expanding Sredny Stog culture (with Sredny Stog possibly being a results of some strong foreign influences) by migrating northward into the forest zone. The subsequent decline of Dnieper-Donets III roughly coincided with the emergence of the “corded” Middle Dnieper culture, but it is hard to assess whether this transformation process was a result of a local development or rather a “massive” migration from the steppe (or maybe both, as these two groupings were probably distantly related to each other, showing Early Dnieper-Donets ancestry in both cases).
    For a genetic and linguistic blending of local hunters and ENFs the Maykop phase is too late if we were to maintain the idea that archaic-PIE/Anatolian had emerged by 4500BC and spread into the Balkans before 4000BC with the Suvorovo culture. They couldnt both be true although IMO there is also little doubt Maykop had a huge indirect influence on the genesis of Yamnaya.

    There are several possible times when hunters and farmers mixed in the steppe but the most redolent of having the power to widely spread a language is Sredny Stog IMO. Its been shown that they were a mix of farmers and steppe people - especially male farmers and steppe females - in terms of crania and they controlled the steppe part of the Balko-Carpathian metal trade as far as the Volga and were clearly well settled between the Dnieper and the Don. Lets put it this way if Anthony is right about Suvorovo speaking proto-Anatolian then its totally clear Sredny Stog were at least IEs in that sense.

    The farmers by the eastern route to the Volga-Ural-north Caspian sort of area seems to still be a source of controversy. I dont have any firm option on this and whether it made a long term impact and fed into Yamnaya. However, I dont see how this group could be linked to Anatolian type archaic IE as it seems to me that they likely migrated into the Balkans from the Dnieper sort of area if they are linked to Sredny Stog offshoot Suvorovo. There seems little doubt to me that by far the most intense links Sredny Stog had with the farming world was with the Balkans-Carpathian area.

    Regarding R1b, I think the strongest links outside the Celto-Italic-Germanic sort of groups is with languages who many think had some sort of prior history in the north and east Balkans like Albanian=Dacian, Armenian, Greek, Anatolian. That is not to say there wasnt R1a too with those languages but there does seem to be an R1b element of some strength in those languages.

    I actually wonder if R1a had a couple of separate pockets in the late copper age - one in a position to feed into the Balto-Slavic groups in the middle Dnieper and another around the east end of the western steppes while M269 could have been located around the lower Dnieper and Black Sea north-west shore area with easy access to the Lower Danube and western shore of the Black Sea.

    Michal you have mentioned you are interested in the non-Yamnaya or more derived aspects feeding into corded ware. Well one thing of interest to me is that people now are tending to make central European corded ware a little later than they used to. This raises the question about Middle Dnieper which is usually closely linked to it. Its dates are often quoted as early as 3300BC in general texts which, if still true, would make it a lot older than the main central European corded ware block running from Poland to the Rhine. I dont know if the dating of Middle Dnieper has also been rethought but if it hasnt then the that clearly has implications as middle Dnieper would then be several centuries older.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    The concept that Yamnaya genetically is a mixture of steppe hunters and SW Asians does remind me somewhat of the theory that IE has the characteristics of a Uralic type language with a Caucasian type major structural influence. The phenomenon of one language providing most vocab but another effecting the structural aspects is well known. Insular Celtic may be an example of this for example and it has also been suggested for English.
    If they are coming from Maikop they are hardly SW Asian. In fact the Basal + ANE-"rich" type of admixture would make them like some modern northern Caucasians.

    Another population with a similar admixture would be ancestral northern Indians of the form prior to their admixture with ASI. This admixture per Moorjani/Reich happened for populations such as North Indian Brahmans just a couple of thousand years back which implies that as late as ~1900ybp there was an un-admixed ANI population in northern India. We also know that this ANI population was present in India at least as early as ~4200ybp as southern Indian populations show admixture in that time-frame. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...02929713003248

    But in this time-frame a migration to India would have to have been massive:
    migrations from Western or Central Asia from 3,000 to 4,000 years BP, a time during which it is likely that IndoEuropean languages began to be spoken in the subcontinent. A difficulty with this theory, however, is that by this time India was a densely populated region with widespread agriculture, so the number of migrants of West Eurasian ancestry must have been extraordinarily large to explain the fact that today about half the ancestry in India derives from the ANI.
    Alternatively:
    Although we have documented evidence for mixture in India between about 1,900 and 4,200 years BP, this does not imply migration from West Eurasia into India during this time ... An alternative possibility that is also consistent with our data is that the ANI and ASI were both living in or near South Asia for a substantial period prior to their mixture.
    Our analysis documents major mixture between populations in India that occurred 1,900–4,200 years BP, well after the establishment of agriculture in the subcontinent. We have further shown that groups with unmixed ANI and ASI ancestry were plausibly living in India until this time.
    I would posit that ANI is the most likely Basal+ANE-"rich" population, possibly from the Sapta-sindhu (Vaksh/Amu to Ganges) region.
    Last edited by parasar; 01-31-2015 at 06:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    For a genetic and linguistic blending of local hunters and ENFs the Maykop phase is too late if we were to maintain the idea that archaic-PIE/Anatolian had emerged by 4500BC and spread into the Balkans before 4000BC with the Suvorovo culture. They couldnt both be true although IMO there is also little doubt Maykop had a huge indirect influence on the genesis of Yamnaya.
    I guess it is obvious to everybody that Maykop could not have contributed to the Archaic PIE stage. Personally, I even doubt it contributed to the Early or Late PIE stages (though this cannot be ruled out yet).

    One interesting point in this context is that if the potential Maykop influence on Yamna was anyhow related to a significant influx of haplogroup J2 to the North Pontic steppe (and then to its further spread towards the Balkan-Carpathian region, which, I guess, wouldn’t be totally inconsistent with the available data), this would also mean that the ancestors of both CWC/R1a-Z282 and BBC/R1b-L11 departed the Pontic steppe before the “Yamna-proper” horizon was formed. This would also be consistent with a scenario in which the Western part of Yamna was associated mostly with R1b-Z2103 and J2 (with R1b-PF7562 and some rare subclades of Z93*and Z283* being minor contributors). From a linguistic point of view, they could have been associated with the hypothetical Graeco-Armeno-Daco-Thracian family of IE, although I can also imagine some strong interactions of those Yamna-derived R1b-Z2103 people with the Danubian/East-Alpine R1b-L11 people (mostly with U152), which could then contribute to the development of the Italic branch of IE (as a branch distinct from the Celtic branch, also associated with U152, among others).


    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    There are several possible times when hunters and farmers mixed in the steppe but the most redolent of having the power to widely spread a language is Sredny Stog IMO. Its been shown that they were a mix of farmers and steppe people - especially male farmers and steppe females - in terms of crania and they controlled the steppe part of the Balko-Carpathian metal trade as far as the Volga and were clearly well settled between the Dnieper and the Don.
    If the steppe people were a group that was a dominant one (from both the linguistic and cultural point of view), I really doubt this would lead to any mixture of male farmers and steppe females. Your scenario would also imply that Sredny Stog (and generally the Western part of the North Pontic steppe) would be dominated by the farmers’ Y-DNA haplogroups, which seems rather unlikely (IMO).


    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    There seems little doubt to me that by far the most intense links Sredny Stog had with the farming world was with the Balkans-Carpathian area.
    I would agree with this, but what you write could only be a part of the story, ie. that part that corresponds to a period when the Sredny Stog culture has already been formed (and no significant contacts with any Eastern Neolithic centers were continued). In other words, those Mediterranean-like anthropological features that have suddenly popped up around the Dnieper (or in a newly formed Sredny Stog culture) could have corresponded to the “Caspian-derived” steppe invaders from the East (or from South-East) who were not typical farmers (but rather pastoralists) and have likely contributed to the emergence of the Sredny Stog Culture on the Dnieper-Donets II background.


    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Regarding R1b, I think the strongest links outside the Celto-Italic-Germanic sort of groups is with languages who many think had some sort of prior history in the north and east Balkans like Albanian=Dacian, Armenian, Greek, Anatolian. That is not to say there wasnt R1a too with those languages but there does seem to be an R1b element of some strength in those languages.
    Agreed. However, the Anatolian issue seems to be very complicated and I wouldn’t associate them with any known “European” subclade of R1b. I would even be reluctant to derive them from the North Pontic steppe, but this a completely different story.


    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I actually wonder if R1a had a couple of separate pockets in the late copper age - one in a position to feed into the Balto-Slavic groups in the middle Dnieper and another around the east end of the western steppes while M269 could have been located around the lower Dnieper and Black Sea north-west shore area with easy access to the Lower Danube and western shore of the Black Sea.
    Agreed.


    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Michal you have mentioned you are interested in the non-Yamnaya or more derived aspects feeding into corded ware. Well one thing of interest to me is that people now are tending to make central European corded ware a little later than they used to. This raises the question about Middle Dnieper which is usually closely linked to it. Its dates are often quoted as early as 3300BC in general texts which, if still true, would make it a lot older than the main central European corded ware block running from Poland to the Rhine. I dont know if the dating of Middle Dnieper has also been rethought but if it hasnt then the that clearly has implications as middle Dnieper would then be several centuries older.
    This is exactly what I have suggested in my previous post in this thread.
    Last edited by Michał; 02-01-2015 at 01:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    I guess it is obvious to everybody that Maykop could not have contributed to the Archaic PIE stage. Personally, I even doubt it contributed to the Early or Late PIE stages (though this cannot be ruled out yet).

    One interesting point in this context is that if the potential Maykop influence on Yamna was anyhow related to a significant influx of haplogroup J2 to the North Pontic steppe (and then to its further spread towards the Balkan-Carpathian region, which, I guess, wouldn’t be totally inconsistent with the available data), this would also mean that the ancestors of both CWC/R1a-Z282 and BBC/R1b-L11 departed the Pontic steppe before the “Yamna-proper” horizon was formed. This would also be consistent with a scenario in which the Western part of Yamna was associated mostly with R1b-Z2103 and J2 (with R1b-PF7562 and some rare subclades of Z93*and Z283* being minor contributors). From a linguistic point of view, they could have been associated with the hypothetical Graeco-Armeno-Daco-Thracian family of IE, although I can also imagine some strong interactions of those Yamna-derived R1b-Z2103 people with the Danubian/East-Alpine R1b-L11 people (mostly with U152), which could then contribute to the development of the Italic branch of IE (as a branch distinct from the Celtic branch, also associated with U152, among others).

    If the steppe people were a group that was a dominant one (from both the linguistic and cultural point of view), I really doubt this would lead to any mixture of male farmers and steppe females. Your scenario would also imply that Sredny Stog (and generally the Western part of the North Pontic steppe) would be dominated by the farmers’ Y-DNA haplogroups, which seems rather unlikely (IMO).

    I would agree with this, but what you write could only be a part of the story, ie. that part that corresponds to a period when the Sredny Stog culture has already been formed (and no significant contacts with any Eastern Neolithic centers were continued). In other words, those Mediterranean-like anthropological features that have suddenly popped up around the Dnieper (or in a newly formed Sredny Stog culture) could have corresponded to the “Caspian-derived” steppe invaders from the East (or from South-East) who were not typical farmers (but rather pastoralists) and have likely contributed to the emergence of the Sredny Stog Culture on the Dnieper-Donets II background.
    1)Who do you mean by "they" Yamnaya or pre Yamnaya CWC/R1a-Z282 and BBC/R1b-L11 departed the Pontic steppe before the “Yamna-proper” horizon was formed?
    2)Were these Caspian derived pastoralists a mix of EEF and EHG and ANE or just EEF? Ie. mostly near eastern J2?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hando View Post
    1)Who do you mean by "they" Yamnaya or pre Yamnaya CWC/R1a-Z282 and BBC/R1b-L11 departed the Pontic steppe before the “Yamna-proper” horizon was formed?
    Let me cite a relevant fragment of my post:
    This would also be consistent with a scenario in which the Western part of Yamna was associated mostly with R1b-Z2103 and J2 (with R1b-PF7562 and some rare subclades of Z93*and Z283* being minor contributors). From a linguistic point of view, they could have been associated with the hypothetical Graeco-Armeno-Daco-Thracian family of IE.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hando View Post
    2)Were these Caspian derived pastoralists a mix of EEF and EHG and ANE or just EEF? Ie. mostly near eastern J2?
    What I had in mind when writing about those hypothetical Caspian-derived pastoralists (in the context of the origin of Sredny Stog) was an R1b-rich grouping that could have invaded the lower Dnieper region (ie. the former territory of Dnieper-Donets II) about 4500 BC. Please see one of my previous posts in another thread:
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...0587#post10587

    If there was any J2 group strongly present in the steppe (which is still a matter of controversy), I would associate it with a much later influence of the Caucasian people (Maykop), which could be dated to about 3500-3300 BC (ie. about the time when Yamna was formed), although it should be noted that Cucuteni-Tripolye could have been another potential source of J2 in the steppe (though this is even more speculative).

    As for any specific autosomal component present in the above two hypothetical groupings entering the North Pontic steppe from either East or South-East, I would assume that both ANE and sort of an EEF-like component were present in both these populations, although in very different proportions (with ANE being quite strong among the "Caspian" R1b people but much weaker among the "Caucasian" J2 people). As for EHG, I doubt it was there, although we don't really know what EHG is (ie. how it differs from WHG and ANE).

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    If you note Patterson corrected two items reported in the Harvard article - the date to 3500bc and that they did not have any DNA from Maikop to test - but not that part of the report which mentions a potential Maikop origin for PIE. Lets us see how this issue is resolved as Anthony is also listed as a co-author.

    Also in the second paper the use of "proximate" and "into Europe" is quite limiting - "the Eurasian steppe as a proximate source for Indo-European migrations into Europe" - I think.

    Interesting times ahead for sure!
    Apparently, and unsurprisingly in line with his book, Anthony is still on the steppe bandwagon.
    The Indo-European
    Homeland from Linguistic
    and Archaeological
    Perspectives

    David W. Anthony and Don Ringe
    http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/pdf...-030514-124812
    Archaeological evidence and linguistic evidence converge in support
    of an origin of Indo-European languages on the Pontic-Caspian
    steppes around 4,000 years BCE. The evidence is so strong that arguments
    in support of other hypotheses should be reexamined.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    Isn't this implied by your multiple statements on this forum (like those cited below), especially when seen in light of the recent report by Reich and Patterson saying that "Western and Eastern Europe collided ~4,500 years ago with the appearance of the Corded Ware people in Central Europe, who derived at least two thirds of their ancestry from an eastern population closely related to the Yamnaya."?
    considering that most haplogroups came from the East , which do you specifically mean ??

    who collided with who?


    My Path = ( K-M9+, LT-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-CTS6397 yDna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtDna
    Son's mtDna = K1a4p

  19. The Following User Says Thank You to vettor For This Useful Post:

     Hando (02-03-2015)

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