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Thread: "DNA and the Origins of Peoples: The Armenians" Lecture

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krefter View Post
    There's continuity in Armenia since the Bronze age. Ancient DNA has confirmed it. The only way there isn't continuation is if older Armenians mixed with people very similar to them. This is about Bronze age Armenia and not any other region of the Middle East or time period.
    Yes, but he's not just asserting that there's continuity between ancient Armenians from the late Bronze Age to modern Armenians, he's taking it a step further and proclaiming outright that the ancient Near East as a whole was similar to both ancient and modern Armenians.

    Armen Martirosian:

    I will summarize this in a manner that's more comprehensible and detailed. Armenians became genetically isolated during the Late Bronze Age (about 3500 years before the present) and have not intermixed with populations from distant regions since then. Because Armenians are Late Bronze Age (LBA) genetic isolates, we, as a population are like a living fossil. When comparing the ancient DNA of individuals dug up in modern Armenia with those of Armenians, there isn't much of a difference in the DNA. It essentially means that we represent a genetic continuum of 3500 years. What this means beyond just Armenians, as the article that will be out in the prestigious journal of Nature soon, is that we can compare modern European populations with modern Armenians, knowing that it's the same as comparing the modern European population with ancient Near Easterners (as Armenians represent an essentially pure sample of the Late Bronze Age). We are closer to the basal populations that existed in the Near East, then subsequently migrated toward Europe during the Bronze Age-Iron Age. than any other population in present Europe.
    Last edited by ZephyrousMandaru; 06-08-2015 at 03:34 AM.

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    http://www.isabs.hr/registration2013...d_abstract=365

    BALKAN GENETIC SIGNALS IN THE ARMENIAN PATERNAL GENE POOL
    Hovhannisyan A1,Khachatryan Z1,Hovhannisyan H1,Yepiskoposyan L1

    1Institute of Molecular Biology NAS RA, Yerevan, Armenia
    [email protected]

    The question of Armenian ethnogenesis is a subject of hot debate among scholars of various disciplines. According to the ancient Greek historian Herodotus, the Armenians were Phrygian migrants, who resembled them by their language and clothing. Here, we genetically tested the Balkan origin of Armenians using specific Y-chromosomal markers.

    We applied data for Y-chromosomal high-resolution genotyping results from 1171 males representing 10 Armenian geographic groups which almost cover the whole area of the Armenian plateau and the database of general Armenian population in the Armenian DNA project at Family Tree DNA. Relatively young (~5,0 kya) and frequently encountered lineages (E-V13, I-M438, J-M12, and R-M417) were selected to trace possible signals of Balkan genetic influence in the Armenian paternal gene pool.

    The frequency distribution of the haplogroups shows the positive cline from the Balkan populations to Armenia, the Near East, and the Caucasus. Moreover, the rate of their genetic diversity in the general Armenian population is significantly higher than in Balkan datasets. The results of ADMIXTURE analysis revealed 30% and 14% of Balkan influence to the Armenian genetic legacy while considering the time span of 5,0 and 3,0 kya, respectively.

    On the whole, our results only partly support the version of Balkan origin of the Armenians, and in contrast to it, mainly indicated Neolithic and post-Neolithic ancient human migrations from the Armenian Highland and the Levant to southern Europe.

    Keywords: Armenian Highland;Balkans;Armenian origins;Y chromosome;haplogroups

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krefter View Post
    It make sense that Caucasus pops have been static for many thousands of years. Who in historical times can be the source of Lezgin's 27% ANE? No one.
    Lezgins have a lot of J1 and R1b-M269, implying two sources at least, with the latter the likely source of their ANE. It may not be historical, we will see how that pans out, but the evidence from Samara and Yamna indicates to me that the Lezgin M269 is from the Steppes.

    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...expansion.html
    Overall, the most frequent haplogroups in the Caucasus were G2a3b1-P303 (12%), G2a1a-P18 (8%), J1*-M267(xP58) (34%), and J2a4b*-M67(xM92) (21%), which together encompassed 73% of the Y chromosomes, while the other 24 haplogroups identified in our study comprise the remaining 27% (Table 2). ... haplogroup J1*-M267(xP58) comprised 44-99% of the Avar, Dargins, Kaitak, Kubachi, and Lezghins (South-East Caucasus, Dagestan linguistic group) but was less than 25% in Nakh populations and less than 5% in the rest of Caucasus.

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    Modern Armenia is not in Anatolia. It is in South Caucasus. More specificaly the Eastern part of Armenian Highlands. The archaeologic history of Armenian Highlands and South Caucasus is different from Anatolia and Mesopotamia, so I think there sould be some genetic substructures in Near East.

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    That study on Balcanic signals is amazing.
    The majority of Armenian R-M417 is in the Z93 suclade. So how it relates to Balcans is beyond my understanding.
    The J-M12 (J2b) is also present in India. Did this mean that Indians also have signals from Balcans?
    E-V13 is a Neolithic marker that probably has a Levantine origin and is hardly unprobable that it is related to IE or to the question of Armenian language.
    Last edited by Arame; 06-08-2015 at 05:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    Zephyrous

    Modern Armenia is not in Anatolia. It is in South Caucasus. More specificaly the Eastern part of Armenian Highlands. The archaeologic history of Armenian Highlands and South Caucasus is different from Anatolia and Mesopotamia, so I think there sould be some genetic substructures in Near East.
    The Armenian Highlands actually overlaps with Northern Syria, Iraq and Iran. It's not just limited to the Southern Caucasus, like Georgia, Azerbaijan or Dagestan are.
    Last edited by ZephyrousMandaru; 06-08-2015 at 05:57 AM.

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    Does anyone know if the ancient Armenian samples were buried along with any artifacts or other paraphernalia that could shed some light on their cultural associations? Who were the people living in what is today Armenia in 1500 BCE? The Hurrians? Just a note that Mitanni were comprised of a Hurrian majority population as well, with a possible Indo-Aryan elite.


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    The samples from the new paper were described in detail in this paper...

    Trauma in human remains from Bronze Age and Iron Age archaeological sites in Armenia

    Look for:

    Nerkin Getashen Bronze Age ca. 1200-1300 BCE
    Noraduz Iron Age ca. 700 BCE

    But these might not be all of the Armenian samples in the new paper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    Does anyone know if the ancient Armenian samples were buried along with any artifacts or other paraphernalia that could shed some light on their cultural associations? Who were the people living in what is today Armenia in 1500 BCE? The Hurrians? Just a note that Mitanni were comprised of a Hurrian majority population as well, with a possible Indo-Aryan elite.

    Well, the arrival of Armenian speakers in the area seems to be a Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age phenomenon, prior to that the area was mostly Hurro-Urartian speaking.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZephyrousMandaru View Post
    Yes, but he's not just asserting that there's continuity between ancient Armenians from the late Bronze Age to modern Armenians, he's taking it a step further and proclaiming outright that the ancient Near East as a whole was similar to both ancient and modern Armenians.
    So he is basically stating that Modern Armenians are to the Ancient Middle East what Modern Sardinians are to EEF.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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