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Thread: Map of L21 in France

  1. #61
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    IMHO, better to rely on population studies, like Busby et al, when available. Places of ancestral origin in FTDNA projects are customer reported and not always reliable. Often they are the product of the wish being father to the thought. There are people who report Norman ancestry, for example, who read somewhere that their surname has a Norman origin but who have no other connection to Normandy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    IMHO, better to rely on population studies, like Busby et al, when available. Places of ancestral origin in FTDNA projects are customer reported and not always reliable. Often they are the product of the wish being father to the thought. There are people who report Norman ancestry, for example, who read somewhere that their surname has a Norman origin but who have no other connection to Normandy.
    A case like this, normally I don't count him!
    Unless, he has informed a specific place in Normandy (I counted on the maps of the projects).
    One of the benefits of the projects, it's is that, usually, members have done a little genealogy and know their ancestors before the twentieth century. While scientific studies studying the current populations.
    The twentieth century brought inter-regional mixture.


    Otherwise, I made a small mistake in the cutting England!
    In my maps, East Anglia should be with the East-Center not in the Southeast.

    Is it there was a strong immigration of Normans (from France) in the South East with William the Conqueror? The high rate of L21 is necessarily decreased the rate of U106!
    I do not exclude of course, a sample not enough representative, as perhaps also in Northern France!
    Last edited by Tolan; 02-03-2014 at 05:42 PM.

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    The population influx into England with William the Conqueror is thought to have been very small. Substantial portions of the incomers also came from Brittany and Flanders, and some were from other areas of northern France, such as the Pas de Calais. They were not concentrated in any particular area of England, but spread out through the entire country.

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    I'll give you another example from my personal experience, but there have been others. I encountered a man, who shall remain nameless, who listed an Eastern European country as the place of origin for his y-dna mdka. He was L21+ and had an English-looking surname. When I contacted him, I found out that Eastern European country was actually his mother's home country. Last I checked, he had not changed it.

    I have encountered others who, with very little to go on, have laid claim to this or that European country.

    I would rather see a Google map with push-pins for reported results than a map that purports to show haplogroup percentages but actually does more harm than good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I'll give you another example from my personal experience, but there have been others. I encountered a man, who shall remain nameless, who listed an Eastern European country as the place of origin for his y-dna mdka. He was L21+ and had an English-looking surname. When I contacted him, I found out that Eastern European country was actually his mother's home country. Last I checked, he had not changed it.

    I have encountered others who, with very little to go on, have laid claim to this or that European country.

    I would rather see a Google map with push-pins for reported results than a map that purports to show haplogroup percentages but actually does more harm than good.
    I see what you are saying, however, I went back and scanned pretty quickly through the DF27 project, and compared his map with a few other recent DF27 maps, and he is pretty much spot on for current populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolan View Post
    A case like this, normally I don't count him!
    Unless, he has informed a specific place in Normandy (I counted on the maps of the projects).
    One of the benefits of the projects, it's is that, usually, members have done a little genealogy and know their ancestors before the twentieth century. While scientific studies studying the current populations.
    The twentieth century brought inter-regional mixture.


    Otherwise, I made a small mistake in the cutting England!
    In my maps, East Anglia should be with the East-Center not in the Southeast.

    Is it there was a strong immigration of Normans (from France) in the South East with William the Conqueror? The high rate of L21 is necessarily decreased the rate of U106!
    I do not exclude of course, a sample not enough representative, as perhaps also in Northern France!
    Thanks for the map Tolan, although as rms2 has said these frequencies are not based on a scientific sample so caution is needed.

    Having said that, it would not surprise me if U106, which I believe is a "Germanic" marker in Britain is at reasonable levels in SW England. The modern counties of Devon, Somerset and Dorset had all been incorporated into the Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Wessex by the 8th century. From memory, the People of the British Isles project showed in their maps that Devon had as much "Germanic" ancestry as much of Northern England.

    Cornwall resisted the English for much longer but nowadays Cornwall is thoroughly anglicised despite the best efforts of nationalists to revive the Cornish language. In my experience, Cornwall is packed full of English blow ins and the numbers of native Cornish men with deep ancestry must surely be dwindling.

    The problem we have with Cornwall is limited data IMO. Busby's sample for SW England was from Exeter which is in Devon.
    Last edited by avalon; 02-03-2014 at 10:50 PM.

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    Tolan,

    Thanks for the great map.
    I have used both the project data and published study data in my analysis.
    I come to similar conclusions to yours.

    My preferred sources for research are

    for M269 published studies, Busby and Myres.
    for the Y Phylogenetic Tree, Tyler Smith, Wei and Zhu
    for Celtic Archealogy, Professor Barry Cunliffe.
    for Celtic Language, Professor John Koch.
    for Irish Surnames, McLysagh, Keating, Woulfe.
    for old Irish Genealogies, McFirbis and O Cleary.

    Looking at the (simplified) Busby data, which is possibly the best published source source for M269.

    http://www.pinterest.com/pin/32721534767059037/

    The highest frequency with a maximum score of 1.0 are:

    M269: West of Ireland, Basque
    L51: West of Ireland
    L11* West of Ireland
    P312* West of Ireland
    L21* West of Ireland
    M222 West of Ireland (Myres, Genographic)

    Highest Frequency < 1.0
    U152 Switzerland/Alps
    DF27 Iberia, SW France

    http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-m269/

    This would appear to indicate that expansion occurred
    for L21 in the Isles,
    for DF27 in Iberia
    for U152 in the Alps.

    The latest high coverage studies are Genographic Mayo in Ireland and Asturias project in Iberia.
    Summary results were reported for Mayo with [email protected]% and very high L21 and M222 and many new SNPs under M222.

    Here is a map of L21 and its SNPs in Ireland based on project data.

    You can see the hotspots for DF49 in Mayo and Donegal.

    http://www.pinterest.com/pin/32721534766931939/

    Both Mayo and Asturias detailed results have yet to be published.
    I would expect high levels of DF27 and P312 and possibly significant traces of L11 for Asturias.

    Here is my best understanding of how the various SNPs under M269 expanded.

    http://www.pinterest.com/pin/32721534767058376/

    This map will change as the new Big Y and FGC results become clear.
    I hope that the frequently promised new Phylogenetic Tree will be published soon.
    This should show the expansion of
    U152 and in particular L2,
    L21 and in particular DF13 and M222
    DF27 extreme expansion.

    If done correctly it should also show the sequence of these expansions.
    So we have to be patient a little bit longer.

    Here is the Busby M269 SNP Frequency Analysis for France

    http://www.pinterest.com/pin/32721534767041230/

    Hotspots are
    M269: Basque
    L23: Alpes M
    L11: Alpes M
    P312: NW France
    L21: NW France
    U152: Alps
    DF27? S France

    As France is a crossroads between Iberia, Alps and Isles it is good to get a picture of M269 and its SNPs there.
    Last edited by Heber; 02-03-2014 at 11:50 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolan View Post
    A case like this, normally I don't count him!
    Unless, he has informed a specific place in Normandy (I counted on the maps of the projects).
    One of the benefits of the projects, it's is that, usually, members have done a little genealogy and know their ancestors before the twentieth century. While scientific studies studying the current populations.
    The twentieth century brought inter-regional mixture.


    Otherwise, I made a small mistake in the cutting England!
    In my maps, East Anglia should be with the East-Center not in the Southeast.

    Is it there was a strong immigration of Normans (from France) in the South East with William the Conqueror? The high rate of L21 is necessarily decreased the rate of U106!
    I do not exclude of course, a sample not enough representative, as perhaps also in Northern France!
    It looks almost like U152 expanded at the expense of DF27 in this map.
    Y-DNA: I1* (Ware, Hertfordshire)
    MT-DNA: U5a1b4 (Boughton Aluph, Kent)
    Father's MT-DNA: J1c8 (Wolverhampton, Staffordshire)
    Grandfather's MT-DNA: H1b (Littlehampton, Sussex)

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    Sorry, but I think Tolan's maps need reworking, unless you all really believe L21 has a frequency of 16% in NW Germany, for example, or that U106 is at 24% in the southern half of Scotland, 15% in the northern half, and that U152 is at 27% in SE Spain.
    Last edited by rms2; 02-04-2014 at 12:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    IMHO, better to rely on population studies, like Busby et al, when available. Places of ancestral origin in FTDNA projects are customer reported and not always reliable. Often they are the product of the wish being father to the thought. There are people who report Norman ancestry, for example, who read somewhere that their surname has a Norman origin but who have no other connection to Normandy.
    Indeed. There is a degree of error with all self-reporting. However, the problem isn't limited to FTDNA projects. I have read DNA population studies where the researchers will take DNA samples from men in a given town and ask the sample provider to confirm that his grandparents were born in the same area (at least this is better than just taking a cheek swab from any Joe who walks into the local clinic). Hopefully, the participant answers honestly and correctly -- but, who really knows?

    IMO, for the purpose of these maps, the issue isn't one of error per se (there is some, no doubt), but one of bias. Is there any reason to believe that L21 project participants, for example, would incorrectly report certain locales for their MDKAs at a higher or lower rate than U106, U152, or DF27 project participants? Unless I see evidence to the contrary, I would have to assume that the errors on birthplace of a MDKA are randomly distributed -- across haplogroups and regions -- and are not so high as to be significant (although they could be if the sample is too small).

    True random statistical sampling of a size to achieve a 95% confidence level by region would be great. Most population studies of DNA, however, aren't designed to achieve that. Busby, for example, only used 64 men from Hamburg (Table S1, Busby Data Supplement), a city of over 1.8 million people and having an immigrant population estimated at 30% (Wikipedia), to represent North Germany -- an area having over 5 million residents. I suppose that was OK for the purposes of the Busby paper... but, IMO, not a good basis for inferring a region's haplogroup distribution today, much less several thousand years ago.

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