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Thread: Rootsi et al. (2013) Ashkenazi Levite R1a Discussion Thread

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    Rootsi et al. (2013) Ashkenazi Levite R1a Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post


    Rootsi, S. et al. Phylogenetic applications of whole Y-chromosome sequences and the Near Eastern origin of Ashkenazi Levites. Nat. Commun. 4:2928 doi: 10.1038/ncomms3928 (2013).

    ...
    Any reason the Z2124 level is missing? As that is the one that unifies Z2123 and Z2122 (and separates Y40 and L657).

    the divergence time of the two Ashkenazi M582 lineages and the Assyrian R1a-Z2122(xM582) sequence, yielding an estimate of 4,000 (SE 300) years.
    That Iberian connection is interesting, as
    According to Ibn Faḍlan, Ibn Dastah, and others, only the king and the grandees were followers of Judaism. The rest of the Chazars were Christians, Mohammedaus, and heathens ... Many members of the Chazarian royal family emigrated to Spain.
    http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/4279-chazars

    PGP4 (Ashkenazi Jew) and HG01617 (Iberian from Spain) - https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-b3...lUa19RY2c/edit
    Last edited by parasar; 12-18-2013 at 03:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post


    Rootsi, S. et al. Phylogenetic applications of whole Y-chromosome sequences and the Near Eastern origin of Ashkenazi Levites. Nat. Commun. 4:2928 doi: 10.1038/ncomms3928 (2013).

    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/13...comms3928.html
    Regarding the Iraqi Jewish and Mumbai Jewish match, this may be of relevance:

    History of the Jews in Bombay, India, began when Jews started settling in Bombay during the 18th century, due to its economic opportunities.[1] The Jewish community of Bombay consisted of the remnants of three distinct communities: the Bene Israeli Jews of Konkan, the Baghdadi Jews of Iraq, and the Cochin Jews of Malabar.[2]
    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    That Iberian connection is interesting...
    When I see that tree I am thinking more crypto-Jew, than Khazar.
    Last edited by Humanist; 12-18-2013 at 06:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    That Iberian connection is interesting.
    But the crypto-Jew explanation much more practical.

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    Then
    from P to R about 4,000 y
    from R to R1 about 3,200 y
    from R1 to R-Z2105 and R-L11 about 10,700 y
    from R-Z2105 to the line of these Jews 800 y
    between this Kurdish Jew and an Assyrian about 4,500 y

    P.S. The SNPs come from only 8,97Mbp not from the Full Y, thus the dates are higher, we don't know how much.
    Last edited by Rathna; 12-18-2013 at 06:28 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    But the crypto-Jew explanation much more practical.
    Of course without other not-Jews tested and above all the aDNA we cannot say if these people descend from ancient Jews or are introgressed in different times.

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    Well, in any case, the whole genome is available at the 1000 Genomes website, and it looks like that pedigree has been in Murcia for a while (Iberian_HG01617).

    http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/4160/owyl.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post


    Rootsi, S. et al. Phylogenetic applications of whole Y-chromosome sequences and the Near Eastern origin of Ashkenazi Levites. Nat. Commun. 4:2928 doi: 10.1038/ncomms3928 (2013).

    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/13...comms3928.html
    Based on this paper 43% (3/7) of R1a-M198 Kurds are R1a-M582. This is a higher percentage than in all other tested non-Jewish populations.
    Last edited by Palisto; 12-18-2013 at 08:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
    Then
    from P to R about 4,000 y
    from R to R1 about 3,200 y
    from R1 to R-Z2105 and R-L11 about 10,700 y
    from R-Z2105 to the line of these Jews 800 y
    between this Kurdish Jew and an Assyrian about 4,500 y

    P.S. The SNPs come from only 8,97Mbp not from the Full Y, thus the dates are higher, we don't know how much.
    This gives 23200 years from P to present with 1 mutation every 100 years . With 8,9Mbp,Francalacci et al took 1 mutation every 200 years (confirmed by Ray Banks independantly). Therefore, the distance from P to present becomes 46,400years . but I am certain P is more than 50,000 years old and probably coalesced at the end of the first pleniglacial 59,000 years ago and before the warm and wet phase between 55,000 and 50,000 time of the expansion of AMH from India (origin of P) and Gulf to Near East westwards (Emirian culture with G, I and J) and to Center Asia (origin of R and Q probably) northwards.

    46400 is by couting for R1b line . For R1a line from P to Assyrian, it is 50,000 years

    The gap between 59-55,000 and 50-46,000 , about 5-13,000 years is probably to find in the ends of the tree still weakly known and not between P and L11,Z93 with SNPs now well-known enough.
    Last edited by palamede; 12-18-2013 at 02:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by palamede View Post
    This gives 21200 years from P_to_present with 1 mutation every 100 years . With 8,9Mbp,Francalacci et al took 1 mutation every 200 years. Therefore, the distance from P to present becomes 42,400years . but I am certain P is more than 50,000 years old and probably coalesced at the end of the first pleniglacial 59,000 years ago and before the warm and wet phase between 55,000 and 50,000 time of the expansion of AMH from India (origin of P) and Gulf to Near East westwards (Emirian culture with G, I and J) and to Center Asia (origin of R and Q probably) northwards.

    The gap between 59-55,000 and 42,500 , about 17-13,000 years is probably to find in the ends of the tree still weakly known and not between P and L11,Z93 with SNPs now well-known enough.
    Palamede, in another thread (see R1b Phylogeny) I examined the SNPs between Z2103 and Z2110 and it seemed to me that only Z2108 lacked, thus the SNPs lacked aren't the double but a little bit more. But for me, and for my theory of the Italian Refugium, already these dates are good.

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    From the Paper:

    R1a-M582 was identified in various populations, with the highest frequency occurring within Iranians collected from the southeastern Kerman population who self-identified as Persians, northwestern Iranian Azeri and in Cilician Anatolian Kurds, at 2.86%, 2.50% and 2.83%, respectively

    The R1a-M582 fellow(s?) may have been ruling elite Khazar(s) who converted to Judaism way back when. We actually have no way of knowing, but my first impulse is not to equate this branch with exiled Israelites quite frankly.

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