Page 9 of 14 FirstFirst ... 7891011 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 90 of 135

Thread: Relative finder distribution of South Asian Caste and Tribal Haplogroups

  1. #81
    Banned
    Posts
    876
    Sex
    Location
    Vancouver, Canada
    Ethnicity
    Scythian Massagetae
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1-ZS3668>>FGC41588
    mtDNA (M)
    H14a+[3 Extras]

    Canada Germany Sikh Empire Sweden Russian Federation India
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrdad View Post
    It would seem to me that the Jatts were one of the last groups to migrate into South Asia. Is this true?!
    Last ones are probably Gurjar and Kamboh.

  2. #82
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,681
    Sex
    Location
    New York
    Ethnicity
    South Asian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    J2b2-M241 (J-Y978*)
    mtDNA (M)
    M30b2a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a1-L657 (R-Y16494)
    mtDNA (P)
    M18a

    United States of America Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by paulgill View Post
    Last ones are probably Gurjar and Kamboh.
    Kamboja are Iron Age, no? ~2200-3000ybp. At the latest they came into India around the time of the Scythians. The Gujjar came significantly later (~1500ybp) with the Hephthalites

  3. #83
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,681
    Sex
    Location
    New York
    Ethnicity
    South Asian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    J2b2-M241 (J-Y978*)
    mtDNA (M)
    M30b2a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a1-L657 (R-Y16494)
    mtDNA (P)
    M18a

    United States of America Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by paulgill View Post
    11Gd at 37 STRs means no relationship or no relationship for the past 2500yrs. But it is worth looking into if it is of Central Asian origin. I have a match of 1GD at 12 STRs from Turkey and we are trying to get him to go for more DNA testing. He is from Yetis family, Yetis does sound close to Jatts. We know that he is originally from Central Asia and may be Z1853* like me and may belong to my lineage.

    Not a few decades, may be in a few years FG be affordable for most.
    I have a 1GD match at 12 markers from Turkey too. A J2b1 individual.

  4. #84
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,681
    Sex
    Location
    New York
    Ethnicity
    South Asian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    J2b2-M241 (J-Y978*)
    mtDNA (M)
    M30b2a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a1-L657 (R-Y16494)
    mtDNA (P)
    M18a

    United States of America Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by paulgill View Post
    It is obvious that your knowledge about Jatts is very poor. Jatts were Central Asian nomads, Mostly Iranic Tribes, Scythians, Samaratians etc. They took to agriculture only later on. Read Deva Samhita. Dahae are the Royal Scythians. Gill, Mann, Virk, Dhillon, Bains and many more surnames common with Europeans are found only among Jatts and non other, because these are ancient tribe names of these Central Asians and got into India and Europe as Goths, Jutes, Alans, Samaratians and Scythians migrated south into Indian subcontinent and West into Europe.

    Many communities in India are into agriculture and they have either their own caste or ethnic group and are not called Jatts just because they are agriculturists. Jatts, Kamboh, Gujar and even Ahirs are considered by most as outsiders. Jatt is an ethnic group not a caste, they were never a part of the caste system.
    Since there is no official story here, you're welcome to your opinion but I personally don't consider Jatt a truly separate ethnic group. The genetic differences are minor and entirely attributable to caste-based endogamy and the very word "Jat" has etymological connections to the basis for this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C4%81ti

    The origin of Jatts is uncertain, but Jatt, today and for the past 1500 years at least constituted an agricultural non-Brahmanic/Hindu caste in the northwestern part of India (not simply an agricultural caste, but specifically one that didn't mesh with Hinduism properly and existed in the Northwest... some of them or most of them might have had Central Asian ancestry but more than a few have completely local/native Y-DNA lineages). The first tribes might have actually had a deeper Jatt identity while they were still in Central Asia but more likely they had independent tribal identities and "Jatt" didn't become a unifying identity until they settled into an agricultural lifestyle in India, sort of like retirement from their previous nomadic lifestyle in Central Asia. The Kamboj would be an example of an exception, who didn't assimilate into the Jatt caste (for whatever reason, they were a Central Asian tribe who came into India around the same time) and retained their original identity.

    There are theories that "Jatt" was used as an identifying term for a nation or confederation of many tribes since their time in Central Asia, and that it etymologically has connections to Goths, Jutes, etc but all this is still pretty much unsubstantiable hearsay.

    You know all this. So you should also know that the tribes it is claimed Jatts are related to (i.e, Alans, Jutes, Goths, etc) retained their tribal identities in Europe and became separate ethnic groups. The history of Jatts in India did not follow a similar pattern. There isn't enough of a cultural and genetic difference, imho, to label them as a truly separate ethnicity. But India's caste system is today unique so the various castes have evolved into a near ethnic level of differentiation in some cases. I would consider "Punjabi", "Rajasthani", "Kashmiri", "Pahari", "Pathan", "Sindhi", "Balochi", etc examples of ethnic groups. You could label Jatt as a tribe or caste within that context. It functions the same either way in modern times (and in ancient times more like a caste since the sub-tribes held their independent identities a little better). Since the word is too broad for the terms tribe or ethnicity, caste will have to do (since it did function like a caste once the people known as Jatts settled in India). Studies do show that endogamy did not catch on in India until the development of the four varna caste system or sometime around ~2000ybp, so it might have been influenced by that even if not formally a part of it. The word itself has an etymological connection to the very word for caste. Before ~2000ybp it might have functioned as an identity for a confederation or nation of tribes, and not a caste, but we don't know more about that yet.

    Another thing to note is that the usual suspects in claimed Jatt ancestry (Scythians, Sarmatians, Alans, and other Central Asian groups) have history that is too recent to account for the Y-DNA haplogroups. You yourself have admitted your J1 haplogroup has been in South Asia for thousands of years before the time period in which these groups came south.

  5. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dr_McNinja For This Useful Post:

     BMG (12-19-2013),  parasar (12-18-2013)

  6. #85
    Registered Users
    Posts
    288
    Sex
    Location
    U.S.A
    Ethnicity
    Mixed Mutt
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-Y7
    mtDNA (M)
    Q2a

    United States of America Tonga Fiji Pakistan Afghanistan India
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_McNinja View Post
    Since there is no official story here, you're welcome to your opinion but I personally don't consider Jatt a truly separate ethnic group. The genetic differences are minor and entirely attributable to caste-based endogamy and the very word "Jat" has etymological connections to the basis for this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C4%81ti

    The origin of Jatts is uncertain, but Jatt, today and for the past 1500 years at least constituted an agricultural non-Brahmanic/Hindu caste in the northwestern part of India (not simply an agricultural caste, but specifically one that didn't mesh with Hinduism properly and existed in the Northwest... some of them or most of them might have had Central Asian ancestry but more than a few have completely local/native Y-DNA lineages). The first tribes might have actually had a deeper Jatt identity while they were still in Central Asia but more likely they had independent tribal identities and "Jatt" didn't become a unifying identity until they settled into an agricultural lifestyle in India, sort of like retirement from their previous nomadic lifestyle in Central Asia. The Kamboj would be an example of an exception, who didn't assimilate into the Jatt caste (for whatever reason, they were a Central Asian tribe who came into India around the same time) and retained their original identity.

    There are theories that "Jatt" was used as an identifying term for a nation or confederation of many tribes since their time in Central Asia, and that it etymologically has connections to Goths, Jutes, etc but all this is still pretty much unsubstantiable hearsay.

    You know all this. So you should also know that the tribes it is claimed Jatts are related to (i.e, Alans, Jutes, Goths, etc) retained their tribal identities in Europe and became separate ethnic groups. The history of Jatts in India did not follow a similar pattern. There isn't enough of a cultural and genetic difference, imho, to label them as a truly separate ethnicity. But India's caste system is today unique so the various castes have evolved into a near ethnic level of differentiation in some cases. I would consider "Punjabi", "Rajasthani", "Kashmiri", "Pahari", "Pathan", "Sindhi", "Balochi", etc examples of ethnic groups. You could label Jatt as a tribe or caste within that context. It functions the same either way in modern times (and in ancient times more like a caste since the sub-tribes held their independent identities a little better). Since the word is too broad for the terms tribe or ethnicity, caste will have to do (since it did function like a caste once the people known as Jatts settled in India). Studies do show that endogamy did not catch on in India until the development of the four varna caste system or sometime around ~2000ybp, so it might have been influenced by that even if not formally a part of it. The word itself has an etymological connection to the very word for caste. Before ~2000ybp it might have functioned as an identity for a confederation or nation of tribes, and not a caste, but we don't know more about that yet.

    Another thing to note is that the usual suspects in claimed Jatt ancestry (Scythians, Sarmatians, Alans, and other Central Asian groups) have history that is too recent to account for the Y-DNA haplogroups. You yourself have admitted your J1 haplogroup has been in South Asia for thousands of years before the time period in which these groups came south.
    Has there been an analysis of both Y and mtDNA's done on the Jatts? Their autosomal from what I've seen is definitely different from their neighboring populations.

  7. #86
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,681
    Sex
    Location
    New York
    Ethnicity
    South Asian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    J2b2-M241 (J-Y978*)
    mtDNA (M)
    M30b2a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a1-L657 (R-Y16494)
    mtDNA (P)
    M18a

    United States of America Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrdad View Post
    Has there been an analysis of both Y and mtDNA's done on the Jatts? Their autosomal from what I've seen is definitely different from their neighboring populations.
    The variation between Jatts and other neighboring groups is pretty much a gradient. They are very similar to Pathans and Punjabi Arain, Brahmin, Khatri, etc

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...WZzNBMEE#gid=0

  8. #87
    Banned
    Posts
    876
    Sex
    Location
    Vancouver, Canada
    Ethnicity
    Scythian Massagetae
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1-ZS3668>>FGC41588
    mtDNA (M)
    H14a+[3 Extras]

    Canada Germany Sikh Empire Sweden Russian Federation India
    Garbage in garbage out. You are buying into the garbage that have been put on the internet. All of what you read is not true. I wonder where your claims come from? Jatts' European component of atuosomal dna alone proves your theory of Jatts being local people untrue. And there are still traditions among Jatts that directly point out them being mainly Massagetae, and if you are a Jatt you should be aware of that. Sorry to say but your knowledge of Jatts is near to nil.
    Last edited by paulgill; 12-18-2013 at 07:42 PM.

  9. #88
    Banned
    Posts
    876
    Sex
    Location
    Vancouver, Canada
    Ethnicity
    Scythian Massagetae
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1-ZS3668>>FGC41588
    mtDNA (M)
    H14a+[3 Extras]

    Canada Germany Sikh Empire Sweden Russian Federation India
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_McNinja View Post
    The variation between Jatts and other neighboring groups is pretty much a gradient. They are very similar to Pathans and Punjabi Arain, Brahmin, Khatri, etc

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...WZzNBMEE#gid=0
    And all those groups are outsiders.

  10. #89
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    8,526

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_McNinja View Post
    Kamboja are Iron Age, no? ~2200-3000ybp. At the latest they came into India around the time of the Scythians. The Gujjar came significantly later (~1500ybp) with the Hephthalites
    Even that is suspect. You may have seen on another thread a paper posted that finds little if any evidence of the Ashkenaki Jewish connection to Khazars.
    "Our data render the latter source highly unlikely"
    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/13...comms3928.html

    These same Khazars were purported to have been Gurjjara.

    There was Gurjjar Pratihar (later Rajput) rule in Kannauj, which dynasty was started by a Brahman Harichandra.
    Ghatayala Inscription: "Padihara-vanso ... vippo Hariando" http://books.google.com/books?id=IwE16UFBfdEC&pg=PA146

    Another Gurjjara dynasty is thought to be that of Udaipur Rajputs which was started by a Brahman Guhadatta.
    Atpur Inscription "From Anandpur came he of Brahman race (may he flourish!) Muhideosur Gohadit [Guhil], from whom came the famous Gohil tribe" http://www.eternalmewar.in/research/...x.aspx?q=atpur

    The supposedly third Gurjjara was the Rajput Chauhan dynasty which was established by the Brahman Samanta.
    Bijolia Inscription: calls the first Chahamana as Samanta a Vipra of the Vatsa kula.
    विप्र श्री वत्स गोत्रे भूदहिच्छ्त्रपुरे पुरा । सामन्तोअनन्त सामन्त: पूर्नतल्लो नृपस्तत: ॥ तस्माच्छ्री :जयराजविग्रहनृपौ-श्री चन्द्रगोपेन्द्रकौ । तस्मादुर्लभ गूबको शशिनृपौ-गूवाकसच्चन्दनौ ॥ Epigraphia Indica, Vol.3
    http://www.jatland.com/home/Bijolia_Bhilwara

    So faced with all these Brahman dynasties ruling north India, a theory was developed. This is the Khazar-Hephathlite Hun theory. According to this theory the Khazars were the priests of these Huns, and later became Rajputs.
    Campbell and Bhandarkar were the main proponents of this theory: http://books.google.com/books?id=gUAvuYu-otEC&pg=PA59

    In my opinion, all of the above is suspect. In one the records written (Desavali-vivriti by Pandit Jagamohan) about our caste, we are called of Gurjjar origin and were dislodged from the Yamuna to settle further down the Ganges.


    I can't speak for all Gurjjars, but as I am L657-Y9-Y2392, and as no L657 has been found anywhere in Khazar lands, then at least our Gurjjar line was not Khazar!

  11. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to parasar For This Useful Post:

     BMG (12-19-2013),  Dr_McNinja (12-18-2013),  purohit (06-09-2018)

  12. #90
    Registered Users
    Posts
    288
    Sex
    Location
    U.S.A
    Ethnicity
    Mixed Mutt
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-Y7
    mtDNA (M)
    Q2a

    United States of America Tonga Fiji Pakistan Afghanistan India
    [/QUOTE] I can't speak for all Gurjjars, but as I am L657-Y9-Y2392, and as no L657 has been found anywhere in Khazar lands, then at least our Gurjjar line was not Khazar![/QUOTE]

    I didn't know you were Y9, all this time I thought you were Y7.

Page 9 of 14 FirstFirst ... 7891011 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 849
    Last Post: 10-15-2021, 04:54 PM
  2. Replies: 13
    Last Post: 02-03-2021, 12:56 AM
  3. Relative Haplogroups
    By JoeyP37 in forum 23andMe
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 12-24-2020, 06:56 PM
  4. Replies: 20
    Last Post: 09-17-2014, 08:08 PM
  5. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 04-15-2013, 03:10 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •