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Thread: Some provisional calculations for haplogroup R1a based on the first FGC result

  1. #91
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    One reason I have just outlined in a the ANE and IE thread is that at the latitude Mal'ta boy was living the steppe-tundra habitat his family were using came to an end not far east of Baikal and the route further east was blocked by desert until environmental changes after the LGM around 7000 years after he died. We could then ask why R didnt then move east once the LGM was over like Q seems to have. All I can offer is that Mal'ta boy was found on the west side of the very large Lake Baikal and between it, mountains to the south, harsh conditions to the north etc an eastward move may have been a bit long winded. For the entire period c. 25000BC to perhaps 16000BC the only 'out' from the area west of Baikal that retained a similar steppe tundra environment without a large detour would have been west. Perhaps that 9000 year period simply meant that they established traditions of movement that didnt involve moving east of Baikal.

    Q on the other hand might have been located in south Altai judging from the best matches with native Americans and from the very long period of microblade cultures there. That position may have allowed a movement into east Asia through Mongolia. You do hear people saying that the only good route from Siberia south across the entire area from Afghanistan to the Pacific was the Dzungarian gate which is in Altai. So perhaps it was simply a more natural route for them to reach the more attractive areas of Pacific east Asia from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrdad View Post
    Interesting, so the theory that R1 was from the Steppe still holds? I thought I read something on the old DNA forums about this.

    I'm still baffled that R1 didn't make a huge dent in the America's.

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  3. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrdad View Post
    Yes sir, I'm Y7+
    A Y7+ (243297 Kutbi http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults ) has his Big Y result as reported by Michal:

    The only known Big Y result for the largest branch of R1a (Z93) is for kit 243297 from clade L657. He was initially classified in our project as a non-clustered member of category 9.C (9.C*). However, ss has already been noted by Semargl in anoother thread, the Big Y results place kit 243297 in a large subclade Y7 of clade Y9 (thus in category 9.C2A* in our project). More specifically, he is a member of a relatively large subclade within Y7 called Y30.

    In accordance with his known L657 membership, his "known SNPs" detected in Big Y include, among others, Z93/F992, Z94/F3105 and L657.

    His list of high quality "novel variants" includes 138 positions, but after eliminating all SNPs that are either non-reliable (probably false positive) or upstream of Z93, we are left with 23 "novel variants" only. However, this still includes some known SNPs at the Z93 level:

    18985344 (Z2479)

    at the L657 level:

    6810936 (M605)
    8439885 (Y27/M634)
    17533368 (Y2/M723)
    21610995 (Y26/M780)
    22479856 (Y13)
    22479878 (previously found in our FGC-tested colleague parasar, see: viewtopic.php?f=77&t=463&start=176)

    and downstream of L657:

    18083234 (Y30)

    Thus, after excluding all above known SNPs, the remaining group includes only 15 novel SNPs (probably downstream of L657, and mostly downstream of Y30). We are still waiting for a permission to reveal these new SNPs on this forum.
    http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=1469

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  5. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    A Y7+ (243297 Kutbi http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults ) has his Big Y result as reported by Michal:

    http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=1469
    He is Y30+
    Position of Y30 https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-b3...QXM/edit?pli=1

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  7. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    This is really interesting, I'm starting to wonder if the Y9, Y7 and Y6 found in Arabia occurred right after the decline of the Harappan civilization, where one group went into the Near East since there were already established relationships with the people of that region.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Hi parasar, I'm curious about your results from both the Big Y and the Full Genome.

  9. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrdad View Post
    Hi parasar, I'm curious about your results from both the Big Y and the Full Genome.
    Mehrdad,
    I have not tested with Big Y. A summary of my Full Genome test is here:
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post23656

    As of now my terminal SNP under Y9 is Y2392.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...rive_web#gid=0
    I share Y2392 with a Telugu sample: http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y2392/

    Lappa had compared Big Y and Full Genome for another subgroup - a R1a1-M458 sample:

    Difference between FTDNA's Big-Y and FGC you can see on #208920 result (FGC user)

    If he would be tested in FTDNA he woudn't have such SNPs discovered:
    3250662 (FG1217)
    3357346 (FG1218)
    4179805 (FG1219)
    5023164 (FG1220)
    5131016 (FG1221)
    5388254 (FG1222)
    6430129 (FG1223)
    6539506 (FG1224)
    7008383 (FG1226)
    10065992 (FG1229)
    13397116 (FG1230) less rel.?
    13699255 (FG1231) less rel.?
    15699369 (FG1235)
    18054203 (FG1238)
    21474211 (FG1242)

    which are out of range of scan in Big Y

    Big Y also didn't tested such SNPs near L1029 lvl (?) like:
    3743294 (Z2950)
    5073448 (Z2949)
    15995561 (Z2932)
    17785637 (Z2936)
    23448179 (Z2943)
    26526756 (Z2946)

    and gave bad results of:
    9162901 (Z2921)
    9382910 (Z2922)
    18873388 (Z2937)

    So it's clear that Big Y is a half price of FullGenomes, but also it looks that it's ... half results also...
    http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?...=208920#p20049

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  11. #97
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    So do you guys completely disagree with the old picture of R1a evolving around Central Asia and then branching into Z93, Z94 on its way south, then Z2124 east in South Central Asia and L657 southwest in southern Iran/Persian Gulf and then moving east to India? You think L657 and Z2124 evolved within India and moved out from there?

    My uncle's kit is L657. He's in both R1a project pages, kit number is 311047. His Y-STR pattern seems a little more rare, have you seen it anywhere else among L657 people? There are some Arabs with 14 @ DYS393. Or is that specific marker not that relevant?
    Paternal - Y-DNA: J2b2* (J-M241) Z2432+ Z2433+ Y978+ (J2b2a2b1*) (Hidden Content ) (YFull: YF02959) (FTDNA Kit B6225), mtDNA: M18a* (FTDNA Kit 329180) (YFull: YF63773)
    Maternal- Y-DNA: R1a1a1b2a1a2c2d5a* L657+ Y7+ (R-Y16494*) (FTDNA Kit 311047) (YFull: YF68408), mtDNA: Hidden Content (FTDNA Kit B6225) (YFull: YF02959) (Mother's Mother's Father: R1a1a1b2a1a2c2* Y7+ Y29+ (R-Y29*) (FTDNA Kit 329181) (YFull: YF65256))

  12. #98
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    I'm more towards L657 and Z2124 evolving in either the Sindh or Gujarat areas of South Asia and then migrating out of that region.

  13. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_McNinja View Post
    So do you guys completely disagree with the old picture of R1a evolving around Central Asia and then branching into Z93, Z94 on its way south, then Z2124 east in South Central Asia and L657 southwest in southern Iran/Persian Gulf and then moving east to India? You think L657 and Z2124 evolved within India and moved out from there?

    My uncle's kit is L657. He's in both R1a project pages, kit number is 311047. His Y-STR pattern seems a little more rare, have you seen it anywhere else among L657 people? There are some Arabs with 14 @ DYS393. Or is that specific marker not that relevant?
    More likely Y7 (or at least Y9, Y7+ tend to have DYS447<25) than Y6. I have a feeling that your uncle is in a separate clade from this Arab Y7 (al-Hashmi) who belongs to the DYS459=10,10 clade under Y7. I'm DYS459=9,9 sharing with Sandhu from the Punjab and one Afghan (161626). The Afghan happens to be DYS385=11,15 so I think we may share a relatively recent ancestor.

    Two items are needed to really nail down the origin of these lines.
    1. Ancient DNA (researchers already have a lot of Siberian and Chinese ancient R1a1 DNA so it should be relatively easy to test those again).
    2. A through review of central and north Indian tribes at a much higher number and SNP resolution.

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  15. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    ...
    ...

    Calibrating by the lower number, I would get:
    L657 7828
    Z93 8390
    R1a 24865
    R1 28804
    Based on some of the new papers with L657 lines compared, it appears the above numbers are pretty reasonable.
    From the above we get the age of P as 33000ybp.

    Calibrating with Anzick-1 below we have an almost identical number.
    35 mutations in 12600 years or 360years/mutation.
    Total mutations from the split 91.
    Approximate age of P 91x360=32760ybp from "P-M45 subtree, represented by 16 carriers of the M45 SNP"

    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...re13025-s1.pdf


    The Pakhtoon sample above, 29. Pathan HGDP00243 R-L657 has 105 mutations for 32760 years or 314/years per mutation for this L657 line (a little different from 360years/mutation for Anzick-1, but in the same ballpark).
    Underhill sequenced the same sample - 13. HGDP00243 3.6x Pakistani: Pashtun R1a-L657, 10-Mb - below (167+6+28=201) downstream from R1. The divergence time of ∼25 000 calculated by Underhill for R1 looks to be a slight underestimate.




    Overall picture from Poznik et al:
    Last edited by parasar; 05-30-2014 at 04:10 PM.

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