Page 22 of 59 FirstFirst ... 12202122232432 ... LastLast
Results 211 to 220 of 582

Thread: A deeper think about beakers and genes

  1. #211
    Registered Users
    Posts
    7,694
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA (P)
    L21
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    I definately think there is a strong case for the initial flow of the early beaker proto package as defined by H and H from SW Europe to have been female mediated. Certainly the H flow into central Europe seems pretty concretely associated with the beaker phenomenon. However, a one-way flow of females in networking elite marriages doesnt make sense if it is not fleshed out so that male lines benefiting this networking take part. Not everything is clear but one way or another such a network could allow for an initially largely female genetic flow from the SW with the proto-package beaker characteristics being combined further east with more central European or Alpine cultural traits to produce the full beaker package. Yes this creates problems for some areas to explain R1b but that is a general problem and every model creates problems for some areas not matter how we cut it.

    One way or another we now know there was likely some cultural and mtDNA movement out of south-west Europe in the early beaker period. However, we still need to square this to yDNA. We know R1b, most probably P312 or L11 was involved in this culture from ancient DNA already and it had long seemed very likely that P312 and possibly all L11 were involved. However, R1b has an east to west phylogeny and we need to square that in with the west-east movement of mtDNA.

    I at present am not especially convinced with the pre-beaker model when extended westwards of the Alps. I have outlined why before - lack of much in the way of outside parallels of totally convincing date, lack of cultural influx of clear eastern origin other than copper, ancient DNA from one such copper age pre-beaker group at Trielles which does not include R1b etc etc. It also seems to me to require P312 to be dragged back in age to perhaps 3500BC, some 1000 years more than the central dates that a number of methods have calculated for P312. Anyway that is my view at present and we have been over this a lot before so I dont want to debate that all over again.

    I am more willing to see a geographically more probable link between north Italy and the Alps to adjacent areas like Hungary, the north Balkans etc as a potential route for R1b west of eastern Europe. The phylogeny and geography of subclades would quite nicely fit an entry of a lineage through the Alps with appearing around Tyrol and giving birth to the L51 form around there. It could be broadly connected to the arrival of advanced copper working, mining, networking and dagger elites that seem to spread into the Alps and Italy at this time. Places like Hungary, Romania etc of course absorbed early steppe elements from the Sredy Stog Suvorovo groups from as early as 4300BC so steppe lineages and languages could have been around in the Balkans for 800 years or so before any hypothetical move into the Alps, Italy etc. So it all could fit together as a proto-Celto-Italic scenario as long as we ignore Anthony's idea that they were Anatolian dialect only. We cannot expect a simplistic invasion culture horizon because there simply is nothing of the kind anywhere outside steppe-like lands in Europe. Its always a lot more complex than that.

    My issue really is that seeing ALL the pre-beaker copper age groups strung progressively along the west Med. is problematic. I have major doubts that they were all R1b or even linked. Arsenical metalworking is not in itself much of a help in terms of origin as it has deep roots and was known over a wider part of Europe in pre-beaker times including balkans, Alpine, corded ware and other groups. In terms of stelae, my gut feeling is that they do clearly show something going on as far as Liguria/western Alps but the parallels get too wooly west of there and the Iberian stelae are different looking and dont use the same dagger symbol as far as I am aware of. If there are really super-early steppe-linked stelae in the Balkans not long after 4000BC then the Balkans could have been an area where elements like stelae, dagger elites, copper working/mining skills fused in the centuries after 4000BC. The stelae with dagger imagery of the Alps and Italy could be related to this. There is a lot about the Remedello and related cultures that prefigure beaker IMO and their influence stretched to the western Alps. However, I just do not see this further west.

    I think the Remedello dagger elites may have been the 'seeker' group who linked to Iberia and its existing pre-beaker metal wealth when their mines at Monte Loretto and others in Liguria seem to have run down after 1000 years of use according to RC dates and they have motive as well as a suggestive background culture. They also were in a good position neighboured to the east by Balkans and early steppe groups/hybrids and to the north by Corded Ware groups.

    I suspect these Remedello type groups linked to Iberia with elite marriages and P312 middlemen reaching the crucial areas by 2800BC give or take a generation. They likely would have sealed the deal with the copper age pre-beaker groups with elite wives heading in both directions and middlemen from the western fringes of the Remedello group settling in Iberia. Fairly rapidly this kind of network would have produced the early beaker cultural spread we see in Iberia, SE France and northern Italy and into the western Alps with the early traits such as maritime beakers, awls, fancy textiles, perhaps buttons etc coming from Iberia - all rather female sounding crafts. As has been suggested based on cranial/dental studies, the people buried there appear to have been the same or very similar to the pre-beaker group who had the Remedello dagger imagery. So, to me a flow of new ideas and females from Iberia could the first transformation at Sion that with a flow of some middlemen/traders etc going in the other direction. The middlemen could be the origin of DF27. Other slighly later middlemen may have settled in Hungary c. 2700BC complete with the new beakers and surely they are the right people in time an place to mediate Yamnaya ideas back westwards.

    So, if I was to draw a map of R1b history I would perhaps draw a line going from the western steppe into the north Balkans about 4000BC in the M269* or ealry L23* phase. I would then draw a number of L23 arrows leading in different directions through the Balkans. One would lead to the Tyrol area and through the Alps and Italy c. 3500BC and I would see the whole sequence of L51-L11-P312 as taking place in that zone. I would then around 2800BC show an arrow with DF27 heading to Iberia, U152 around the Alps and L21 heading through France somehow.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to alan For This Useful Post:

     Ian B (10-15-2013)

  3. #212
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,323
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by Net Down G5L View Post
    ....
    My simple summary....
    In short the first clan of beakers arrived and build simple barrows with inhumations. Then a second 'Wessex' clan arrived - put their cremation burials in to the top of the older barrows and built their own 'posh, Wessex' saucer and bell barrows nearby. The first beaker clan then retaliated and put their own inhumations in to the top of some of the 'posh' barrows.

    So who were these clans, when did they arrive, and what type(s) of DNA dominated the people in each clan?
    ...
    I don't know and am truly speculating. I'm treating this as a a line of thinking to investigate.

    The dots to connect or in some cases disconnect:

    - The Early Bell Beakers in western Europe, at least in some cases, were a continuation of prior native cultures. From what I can tell, their use of horses was light and they did not have the full Yamnaya package.

    - The pre-Bell Beaker time frame in western Europe would have used Carpatho-Balkans Metallurgy practices, if any. The Early Beakers may have used the same.

    - There Early Bell Beakers were already along the Atlantic when the large settlement groups of Yamnaya started coming up the Danube into the Hungarian Plains of central Europe.

    - The Yamnaya, were believed by Anthony to be full PIE speaking people. They picked up the practices of the Circumpontic Metallurgy Province. Circumpontic means "around the Black Sea."

    - David Anthony thinks Italo-Celtic dialects of IE may have first been spoken with these Yamnaya migrants in the Hungarian area.

    - During the timeframe the Yamnaya arrived in the Hungarian Plains there was interaction with Corded Ware cultures and the just evolving Unetice culture. In this particular interaction zone, metallurgy types were shared according to Merkyl.

    - Desideri said that even though the women in the Corded Ware and Eastern Bell Beakers (Hungarian area) were different, the men (according to dental traits) were the same.

    - The transition to mid-Beaker phases started occurring within a couple of hundred years in years after the Yamnaya coming up the Danube. There was clear destruction during this transition according to Harrison/Heyd.

    - After the early Beaker phase, there were physical changes, at least in the way of dental traits, in the Bell Beaker people in what Desideri considered a movement from Central Europe towards the Atlantic.

    - The Carpatho-Balkans Metallurgy practices "collapsed" some time during these various Beaker phases and the Circumpontic Metallurgy practices replaced them.

    - Celtic cultures become dominant in much of western Europe.

    - Unetice cultures were becoming dominant in parts of central/north Europe.

    - Germanic languages become dominant in parts of northern Europe. Anthony does not think that Pre-Germanic dialects of western IE came with the Yamnaya that traversed the Danube, but rather those that followed the north side of the Carpathian Mountains to central/north Europe. However, Anthony does point out that some linguistic development alternatives, in fact many simulations according to Warnow, place Germanic on a limb with Italo-Celtic. This would have been during the very early branching of IE.

    ... you can look at the modern distribution maps for P312 and U106 and see what you think about how they line up with a possible east to west movement. P312 and U106 are the two big pieces of L11, which Busby thinks is about the same age all across Europe. Germ-line mutation rate TMRCA estimates for L11 and interclade estimates for P312 and U106 would put them in middle of the Bronze Age or there abouts. We do have ancient R1b of some type showing up in Germany (Kromsdorf) in a Beaker type. We also have it in Germany (Lichenstein) in an Urnfield setting. That's about all we have for ancient R1b.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 10-23-2013 at 01:34 PM.

  4. #213
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,835
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Italo-Iberian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152+L2+FGC10543
    mtDNA (M)
    H4a1-T152C!

    United States of America Italy 1861-1946 Spain
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    ...
    - Desideri said that even though the women in the Corded Ware and Eastern Bell Beakers (Hungarian area) were different, the men (according to dental traits) were the same.
    ...
    This kind of reads that CW and BB men were the same in relation to one another, but I think you mean that they were the same as pre-CW and pre-BB in the same area, correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    ...
    - After the early Beaker phase, there were physical changes, at least in the way of dental traits, in the Bell Beaker people in what Desideri considered a movement from Central Europe towards the Atlantic.
    ...
    Desideri did not make any mention of the Atlantic (that I know of) and simply said "west". In her map, the movement from Central Europe stops in eastern France, eastern Switzerland, and northern Italy. This is in line with Lemercier's models as well. There is very little, if any, Central European Bell Beaker influence in Atlantic France or Iberia. With Britain, BB is influenced with Rhenish Beakers which as a group, are different from the Eastern European Bell Beakers.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 10-23-2013 at 02:06 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  5. #214
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,835
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Italo-Iberian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152+L2+FGC10543
    mtDNA (M)
    H4a1-T152C!

    United States of America Italy 1861-1946 Spain
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    She was talking specifically about Eastern Bell Beakers so not this is not pre-Bell Beakers and not even even Early Bell Beakers, at least of the western type.
    Either way, from what little Y-DNA evidence there is, we can see that CW had very little to do, if anything with R1b.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    The map is on is shown at this post, #190 (click here.) I don't think you can infer she intended a hard stop in a general directional set of arrows like on that map. From central Europe, "west" is towards the "Atlantic". As I mentioned, these are simply dots that could be connected, a line of thinking to investigate. Desideri clearly has no such large vision of the spread of Pre/Proto Celtic speakers and I did not intend to convey she did. I'm only saying it is a possibility that this Desideri westward movement had carry-on potential to reach places like Britain.
    We can absolutely infer her intent because it matches with both archaeological and anthropological data. While this thread is about Britain, the point of my post was to make sure that nobody confuses what went on in Britain with what went on for almost all of Atlantic France and Iberia.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  6. #215
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,323
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    Either way, from what little Y-DNA evidence there is, we can see that CW had very little to do, if anything with R1b.
    From an ancient Y DNA perspective, we have scant evidence on R1b, period, so to infer there was no connection between R1b and Corded Ware of any type is also not possible.

    We do have a prominent linguistic theory that Germanic languages derived from Corded Ware areas. We also have a very strong correlation of R1b-U106 with Germanic languages. We also have ancient R1b finds in Germany... that's about it. We don't know what languages would have been spoken at the time but we are talking about the old interaction areas of Corded Ware, Unetice and Bell Beakers of some sorts. This should be considered. Eventually, U106 in Germanic areas has to be accounted for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    We can absolutely infer her intent because it matches with both archaeological and anthropological data. While this thread is about Britain, the point of my post was to make sure that nobody confuses what went on in Britain with what went on for almost all of Atlantic France and Iberia.
    Okay, although I wouldn't use the word "absolutely" as far as a hard stop to Desideri's westward arrows, your is point well-taken. My point was that follow-on advances could have ensued, but you are correct Desideri doesn't say anything to infer they did. In the paper I was quoting, she studied what she called "Five Bell Beaker portraits". They included, in her words, "Northern Spain", "Southern France", "The Czech Republic", "Hungary" and "Switzerland". From what I can tell, Desideri did not touch on northern and northwestern Europe which would include the Northern Atlantic coasts and English Channel, areas very pertinent to Britain.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 10-23-2013 at 04:40 PM.

  7. #216
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,835
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Italo-Iberian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152+L2+FGC10543
    mtDNA (M)
    H4a1-T152C!

    United States of America Italy 1861-1946 Spain
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    From an ancient Y DNA perspective, we have scant evidence on R1b, period, so to infer there was no connection between R1b and Corded Ware of any type is also not possible.

    We do have a prominent linguistic theory that Germanic languages derived from Corded Ware areas. We also have a very strong correlation of R1b-U106 with Germanic languages. We also have ancient R1b finds in Germany... that's about it. We don't know what languages would have been spoken at the time but we are talking about the old interaction areas of Corded Ware, Unetice and Bell Beakers of some sorts. This should be considered. Eventually, U106 in Germanic areas has to be accounted for.
    In places like Moravia and the Czech Republic were CW and BB lived side by side for a short period of time before giving way to Unetice, even the most junior archaeologist can tell the difference between a Corded Ware skeleton and a Bell Beaker skeleton. They are that distinct from one another. I would actually be shocked if we find anything more than trace samples of R1b in CW aDNA.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to R.Rocca For This Useful Post:

     Jean M (10-23-2013)

  9. #217
    Legacy Account
    Posts
    7,362
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Nationality
    British
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    United Kingdom
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Germanic languages become dominant in parts of northern Europe.
    That was in 500 BC +. That is a looooonnnggg time after Bell Beaker, has nothing to do with Bell Beaker and could be decoupled from this train of thought with no loss, I believe.
    Last edited by Jean M; 10-23-2013 at 05:16 PM.

  10. #218
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,323
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    That was in 500 BC +. That is a looooonnnggg time after Bell Beaker, has nothing to do with Bell Beaker and could be decoupled from this train of thought with no loss, I believe.
    Very, true. That's why I said, "Eventually, U106 in Germanic areas has to be accounted for."

    It can not be ignored.

    I"m just trying to work it into the picture. It might be a key puzzle piece in the larger L11 picture. The nice thing about U106 as an indicator is its strong proclivity to northern Europe. It's not that I care anything about northern Europe, but it is just that P312 can not be relegated as Atlantic Fringe or Western Europe only. Elements of P312 also show up in northern climates, apparently having been there for some time, hence it is not so good as a diagnostic indicator as U106 is.

    U106 is pretty old, hence it can be de-coupled from Germanic, but it as good a suspect as any haplogroup for carrying pre-Germanic dialects of IE, perhaps it is the most likely participant in pre-Germanic. Someone had to bring it to I1 folks.

    U106 didn't seem to have hit southern Europe or the Atlantic or Britain to any great degree until the historic period so I have a hard time placing U106 in (traditionally thought of) Celtic cultures as the Celtic influence into Jastorf.

    My premise is that germ-line intraclade and interclade comparisons show L11, P312, U106, Z381, L2, DF27, Z196, L21 are all about the same age, which is basically the same as saying Busby says there are no significant clines for L11 diversity across Europe.

    If you connect the dots L11, P312 and U106 didn't originate too far from each other, very likely culturally speaking, but also quite possibly geographically as well.

    Maybe they are wrong, but no U106 project guru that I know of thinks U106 parachuted into northern Europe via the Atlantic to the North and Baltic Seas. They think it was either the Danubian route up through Austria or possibly from more directly east (i.e. Poland) which fits a little better with Anthony's northerly pre-Germanic route. I would have thought U106 couldn't have avoided Corded Ware cultures however they went.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 10-23-2013 at 07:03 PM.

  11. #219
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,323
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    In places like Moravia and the Czech Republic were CW and BB lived side by side for a short period of time before giving way to Unetice, even the most junior archaeologist can tell the difference between a Corded Ware skeleton and a Bell Beaker skeleton. They are that distinct from one another. I would actually be shocked if we find anything more than trace samples of R1b in CW aDNA.
    Your criticism must be of Desideri's approach and/or her analysis. She is the one claiming commonality among the men. Remember, she was talking about men only and only about this interaction zone.... the Czech area.

    I won't be shocked if we find R1b in some Corded Ware cultures, but I doubt if anyone cares that I would or would not be shocked.

    We've already found R1b around 2600 BC in Germany. It was a Bell Beaker site, but not a western Bell Beaker type. R1b was in the area, no doubt.

    The truth is we can't say the same about Iberia. No ancient R1b from Iberia at all. I do we expect we'll find some, though, so I have no argument with that.

    I would just ask to keep an open mind on Corded Ware as a vast horizon with multiple elements. I guess I should say it the same as I would for Bell Beakers - Corded Ware is not Corded Ware is not Corded Ware.

    U106 came from somewhere.

    BTW, I don't throw the whole Beaker reflux idea out the window. Perhaps R1b was "in the west" and moved east into central Europe, became fully Yamnaya'ized there and moved back towards the west, with some elements (L11*, U106, some P312) mixing northward into non-Beaker cultures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Mike - I think the OP really, really wants to talk about Bell Beaker. That's the impression I have.
    Sorry, I'm move [EDIT: done] this over to the other Bell Beaker thread, but I do think regional Bell Beaker groups have to be considered in context.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 10-23-2013 at 07:38 PM.

  12. #220
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,323
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    This is really the first half of post #28 from the deeper think Beaker/Britain thread. However, it gets off-topic in Corded Ware and Unetice interactions with Beakers so I broke that thread in half, leaving the Amesbury archer part over there. Within this thread, this really should be sequenced as post #214 and a half, before 215 but after 214.



    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    This kind of reads that CW and BB men were the same in relation to one another, but I think you mean that they were the same as pre-CW and pre-BB in the same area, correct?
    She was talking specifically about Eastern Bell Beakers. She was not specifically addressing pre-Bell Beakers in the Czech mixed study sample, at least not of the Early type.

    This is from post #194 of the other Beaker thread. You should probably go back to her paper to make sure I don't misunderstand this, but this was quote was in direct discussion of the Eastern Bell Beakers, from Desideri's dental non-metrics paper,
    "Czech unmixed gender study: We tested behaviour of men and women of Corded Ware, Bell Beaker and Unetice cultures. Men are close and women have a tendency to be more variable. The intermediary position of Corded Ware men as a common denominator uniting groups of populations is without a doubt more interesting."


    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    Desideri did not make any mention of the Atlantic (that I know of) and simply said "west". In her map, the movement from Central Europe stops in eastern France, eastern Switzerland, and northern Italy. This is in line with Lemercier's models as well. There is very little, if any, Central European Bell Beaker influence in Atlantic France or Iberia. With Britain, BB is influenced with Rhenish Beakers which as a group, are different from the Eastern European Bell Beakers.
    The map is on is shown at this post, #190 (click here.) I don't think you can infer she intended a hard stop in a general directional set of arrows like on that map. From central Europe, "west" is towards the "Atlantic". As I mentioned, these are simply dots that could be connected, a line of thinking to investigate. Desideri clearly has no such large vision of the spread of Pre/Proto Celtic speakers and I did not intend to convey she did. I'm only saying it is a possibility that this Desideri westward movement had carry-on potential to reach places like Britain.

Page 22 of 59 FirstFirst ... 12202122232432 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Need deeper (not basic) understand of snps
    By de Burgh in forum Inquiries Corner
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 08-07-2019, 06:24 AM
  2. Deeper dive of L513 NGS results
    By TigerMW in forum L513
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 04-30-2015, 01:09 PM
  3. Replies: 157
    Last Post: 11-22-2013, 09:40 AM
  4. Replies: 8
    Last Post: 09-09-2013, 10:00 PM
  5. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-25-2013, 09:22 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •