r1b and Gedrosian autosomal dna

[alan]

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/autoso...html#Gedrosian

It clearly bears an astonishing resemblance to R1b in Europe and SW Asia. It would be neccessary to also assume some like with the R1* and R* phases to fully explain its distribution in Asia.

One thing it really does not fit is R1a. That should not really be the case given both descendant from R1. It is clear to me that one or the other has lost the original R autosomal signature. It looks most likely that current Slavic area R1a is very low in Gedrosia. The lower traces in the urals and south Ukraine may be a faint echo of a former stronger presence. It seems to me however that what is largely now the Slavic zone does not have much Gedrosia and at some point in its history the Slavic R1a people mixed in with others to the point that their autosomal DNA was left with very little of its original pattern.

Anyway, I realise there are other options but I think this pattern needs explained and if nothing else does tell us something about R1a and b's diverging histories.

[Fire Haired]

I don't think anything needs to explain. Ged is similar to the distribution of R1b1a2a L23 and descendants in Europe and the middle east mainly just Europe. I don't think it tells anything about R1*. Since R is the brother to Q the dominate hg of Native Americans and very popular in Siberians and the cousins of N dominate in north Asians and urlaic speakers and then O dominate in east asia. It most likely was Mongliod so has nothing to do with Caucasian Gedorsian. That is a basic thing I think most people forget about R1 and R it shows nothing about origin of European people or mid easterns. It became popular mainly with spread of Indo European languages but only deep subclades R1a1a1b S224 and R1b1a2a1a L11. Think about it even in the mid east around Iraq, Antolia, and Caucus sure about 20-30% but it is all under deep subclade R1b1a2a L23 and R1b1a2a2 Z2103 people expanded less than 10,000ybp.

[alan]

Linking it only with L23 falls down in Asia though. You need to add R2 into the mix too explain the overall distribution and that would suggest that the autosomal DNA of R* and R1* was also originally Gedrosia. So, I think it looks like R1b and especially R1a moved into an area with different autosomal DNA. However, this may have not happened until much later. My observations on the huge change in the Ukraine true steppe area in just the last 300 years and millenia of change before that applies to autosomal DNA too. The Gedrosia map does show a much reduced but clear presence in the steppe and urals area on that map. That could be the faint echo of what was there 5000 years ago before the many populations upheavals almost erased the ancient pattern. That could be related to the original autosomal DNA of R1a and perhaps R1b elements in the area. Once in that area they would in all probability have taken on the autosomal DNA of the area - some sort of northern component of the hunter gatherer population of the area who are unlikely to have been R people. Not all but a lot of the R1a in eastern Europe is Slavic and the Slavs probably lived in east central Europe or thereabouts for 3000 years before their expansion so its hardly surprising that today most European R1a is no longer associated with Gedrosia. Even R1b's apparent association with Gedrosia, if it is real rather than coincidence, is after all only as a minority component. If I had to guess why R1b has a stronger association with it than R1a I would think that might be because R1b in Europe seems to date to its lightening spread west in the copper age while R1a in Europe today does have a strong association with the much later Slavic expansion, by which time the original autosomal component may had thousands of years to dilute.

I don't think anything needs to explain. Ged is similar to the distribution of R1b1a2a L23 and descendants in Europe and the middle east mainly just Europe. I don't think it tells anything about R1*. Since R is the brother to Q the dominate hg of Native Americans and very popular in Siberians and the cousins of N dominate in north Asians and urlaic speakers and then O dominate in east asia. It most likely was Mongliod so has nothing to do with Caucasian Gedorsian. That is a basic thing I think most people forget about R1 and R it shows nothing about origin of European people or mid easterns. It became popular mainly with spread of Indo European languages but only deep subclades R1a1a1b S224 and R1b1a2a1a L11. Think about it even in the mid east around Iraq, Antolia, and Caucus sure about 20-30% but it is all under deep subclade R1b1a2a L23 and R1b1a2a2 Z2103 people expanded less than 10,000ybp.

[parasar]

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/autoso...html#Gedrosian

It clearly bears an astonishing resemblance to R1b in Europe and SW Asia. It would be neccessary to also assume some like with the R1* and R* phases to fully explain its distribution in Asia.

One thing it really does not fit is R1a. That should not really be the case given both descendant from R1. It is clear to me that one or the other has lost the original R autosomal signature. It looks most likely that current Slavic area R1a is very low in Gedrosia. The lower traces in the urals and south Ukraine may be a faint echo of a former stronger presence. It seems to me however that what is largely now the Slavic zone does not have much Gedrosia and at some point in its history the Slavic R1a people mixed in with others to the point that their autosomal DNA was left with very little of its original pattern.

Anyway, I realise there are other options but I think this pattern needs explained and if nothing else does tell us something about R1a and b's diverging histories.

I agree this does not fit R1a. It does not fit R1b either as there is no R1b in many of the populations where Gedrosia peaks - Baloch, Brahui etc., who have significant amounts of R1a.
To me it appears that Gedrosia/Baloch is the old mtDNA N (& Y F, G, H) connecting western Europe, Caucasus, and South Asia.

[AJL]

If this component corresponds to any yDNA group it is G, which as we know is likely much older than R-anything in Europe.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...28ADN-Y%29.PNG

[Fire Haired]

Linking it only with L23 falls down in Asia though. You need to add R2 into the mix too explain the overall distribution and that would suggest that the autosomal DNA of R* and R1* was also originally Gedrosia. So, I think it looks like R1b and especially R1a moved into an area with different autosomal DNA. However, this may have not happened until much later. My observations on the huge change in the Ukraine true steppe area in just the last 300 years and millenia of change before that applies to autosomal DNA too. The Gedrosia map does show a much reduced but clear presence in the steppe and urals area on that map. That could be the faint echo of what was there 5000 years ago before the many populations upheavals almost erased the ancient pattern. That could be related to the original autosomal DNA of R1a and perhaps R1b elements in the area. Once in that area they would in all probability have taken on the autosomal DNA of the area - some sort of northern component of the hunter gatherer population of the area who are unlikely to have been R people. Not all but a lot of the R1a in eastern Europe is Slavic and the Slavs probably lived in east central Europe or thereabouts for 3000 years before their expansion so its hardly surprising that today most European R1a is no longer associated with Gedrosia. Even R1b's apparent association with Gedrosia, if it is real rather than coincidence, is after all only as a minority component. If I had to guess why R1b has a stronger association with it than R1a I would think that might be because R1b in Europe seems to date to its lightening spread west in the copper age while R1a in Europe today does have a strong association with the much later Slavic expansion, by which time the original autosomal component may had thousands of years to dilute.

R1a and R1b I don't think define into one aust dna group. Like Native Americans and Pre Neolithic Europeans are in most tests I have seen. I don't think you should be throwing out such big theory's that Gedrosian is original for R1a and R1b. So far it only shows connections to R1b1a2a L23 and its subclades in Europe and kind of the the Near east. Is there is trace of Gedrosian in R1b1a V88 central Africans probably not. R1a1 M17 most likely originated in eastern or central Europe according to FTDNA about 8,000ybp. R1a it self may have first come to the Near east with Indo Iranian languages just 3,000-3,500ybp and deep subclade R1a1a1b2 Z93 so why would Gedrosian be connected with R1a.

IS their a trace of Gedrosian in heavy R1a1a1b2 Z93 south Siberians, central Asian Turkic tribes(got it from Indo Iranians like Sycthians they conquered in the middle ages) probably not. Since R1b1 P25 almost defintley originated in the Near east and R1b1a P297 was the first to go out of the near east into Russia and formed into R1b1a1 M73 is their a trace of Gedrosian in R1b1a M73. and R1b1a2a L23 probably left from the Near east into southeast Europe or Russia 6,000-10,000ybp it a strong trace of Gedrosian but they probably got that from inter marriage with another people in the NEar east I don't think it shows any signs about the origin of R1b and defintley not R1a.

Also people do need to Understand R1 or at least R were probably originally Mongliod at least their father P.

[Fire Haired]

If this component corresponds to any yDNA group it is G, which as we know is likely much older than R-anything in Europe.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...28ADN-Y%29.PNG

I don't think it is really connected to a single Y DNA haplogroup. Just any that spread out of a certain area that had a lot of Gedrosian spread it to where ever they migrated. There is a trace of North Euro in globe13 in Indo Iranian speakers like Kurds but it doesn't exist in near by non Indo Iranian speakers like Assyrians. I bet there is somewhat of a trace of North Euro in R1a1a1b2 Z93 in asia. That doesn't mean North Euro is only from R1a or that R1a originated in North Euro. JUst proto Indo Iranian speakers and R1a1a1b1 Z93 originated in eastern Europe probably in northern Russia. JUst like how R1b1a2a L23 or its father R1b1a2 M269 or grandfather R1b1a P297 spread out of Europe from the north near east area were there is a lot of Gedrosian.

[parasar]

If this component corresponds to any yDNA group it is G, which as we know is likely much older than R-anything in Europe.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...28ADN-Y%29.PNG

I agree. G is the one we even at present see as the connection.

An ancient find from Europe also yielded F* - http://www.plosbiology.org/article/i...l.pbio.1000536 - perhaps the trace F* and P96 we still see in western Europe are remnants.

"F* has been observed in two individuals in Portugal, possibly representing a remnant of 15th and 16th century contact of Portugal with India." http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpF.html

[AJL]

I don't think it is really connected to a single Y DNA haplogroup. Just any that spread out of a certain area that had a lot of Gedrosian spread it to where ever they migrated. There is a trace of North Euro in globe13 in Indo Iranian speakers like Kurds but it doesn't exist in near by non Indo Iranian speakers like Assyrians. I bet there is somewhat of a trace of North Euro in R1a1a1b2 Z93 in asia. That doesn't mean North Euro is only from R1a or that R1a originated in North Euro. JUst proto Indo Iranian speakers and R1a1a1b1 Z93 originated in eastern Europe probably in northern Russia. JUst like how R1b1a2a L23 or its father R1b1a2 M269 or grandfather R1b1a P297 spread out of Europe from the north near east area were there is a lot of Gedrosian.

And yet you seem so sure of an absolute link between haplogroups and language families. Do you see the inconsistency in your own thought?

[Nirvana]

I agree. G is the one we even at present see as the connection.

I really don't see the map of gedrosia overlapping with G haplogroup, better than R1b. The map you have showed is in low resolution but gedrosia on Caucasus is on the opposite side from G group which is on the western side. Also the maps provided by firehaired seem to have gedrosia on the rise toward GB, which is totally opposite in case of G. Who brought gedrosia to GB?

F and G seem to be very old, so we should see F in Europe before Portuguese samples, as well as in Iran. So I assume you base your opinion more on the presumed origin of F than the map. I see that there are some wild theories by Firehaired but I agree on his point that one Hg does not equal one component, especially the old ones.