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Thread: Mesolithic R1b in the Danube Gorge: R1b-V88?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Apparently two of the Mesolithic foragers from the Iron Gates region of the Danube Gorge, SC1 and Vlasa37, are R1b-V88. See this and this, and all of them are negative (ancestral) for M269.

    Since M269 is supposed to be 20,000 or more years old, they all could have been M269, but, of course, none of them was.

    The mrca of V88 and M269 is L754. The two lineages are separated by thousands of years, with M269 descending from L389 and his "son" P297 under L754.

    So what does this news say about V88 and R1b in general?
    The age I attributed to M269 in my initial post was incorrect, an error of memory on my part.

    The rest of the post is correct, however.

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  3. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    But Warren DeBoer has shown that wives who marry into a foreign tribe among tribal societies often feel so exposed and insecure that they become hyper-correct imitators of their new cultural mores rather than a source of innovation.
    They are not insecure, but are social, and have adaptable nature. This is why such
    thing as matrishit never existed, and always existed patriness, becasue women are
    by nature willing to get alone with people around, and adapt new identity. This is
    why women are absorbed to the family of the husband, bear his name and moe to
    his area and culture - because they are created for that.

    IT IS NOT INSECURENESS BUT THEIR VERY NATURE - and good for them.

    BUT this is also one of the reason, why - if they get to the rudder - they will ruin
    society, and they do this right now on the West, getting along with everybody,
    wanting to please everybody, even enemies of their own homelands.

    This is also, why they never created any culture, becasue they are created
    to adapt, not to created or rule - and this should be understood corectly, to
    not make them a victims or something, becasue theis is not their fault. This is
    very necessary thing for society to prosper - but on the other hand, men have
    to provide the subject to adopt - becasue they need it. If there will be not Y to
    adopt, they will embrace what strangers will demend from them - for example Z.
    Last edited by Rethel; 07-03-2017 at 08:49 PM.

  4. #23
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    I think DeBoer is right, that women in a foreign environment will adapt to that environment, and that is true of people in general.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Okay, right, but those two instances are near the Black Sea coast (Varna is right on the Black Sea shore) and could represent the western edge of a Pontic refuge or movement from a Ukrainian refuge. Besides, wasn't that result from Varna R1 rather than R1b?

    In the Balkan hinterlands, where there have been quite a number of Neolithic farmer y-dna test results, R1b is conspicuous by its absence. That could change, but it does not look like there was any kind of R1b continuity there from the Younger Dryas through the Neolithic period.

    The R1b1a from Smyadovo is L754, and, given the Iron Gates results, could be V88.
    Im in agreement, I was merely pointing out that these 'relict' R1b clades persisted beyond the Neolithic and into the Copper Age. Even the Iron Gates, foragers continued on as late as 4000 BC. The big shift came subsequent to this, when newer lineages from central & east-central Europe arrived into the Balkans.
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 07-03-2017 at 11:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    You know, it strikes me that the name Villabruna is becoming a kind of shibboleth. He was a forager who lived about 14,000 years ago, when hunter-gatherers like him ranged across Europe and Asia. He was R1b1a-L754.
    The extent of territory was still somewhat limited c. 12, 000 BC. So it seems that the pre-P297 foragers expanded north & east from Ukraine (to the Baltic and Caspian, resp) whilst their V88 'cousins' expanded west along southern Europe (from Balkans to Italy).

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  9. #26
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    This study, possibly outdated links the common European variant of LP between central Europe and central Balkans. The same variant is found in quite a few central African tribes where V88 is also found. Ironically 7500 years is also the age of the split between the Sardinian V88 and the one in Africa.
    https://phys.org/news/2009-08-years-central-europe.html

    It wouldn't surprise me if this was the staging region for most of the R1b movements, including V88 which moved into Africa, possibly from the Balkans, to the Near East, to Africa. I suspect it was also this region where R1b moved east and formed Yamnaya and absorbed the CHG admixture.

    These men need not have been EEF originally, but rather WHG/EHG and absorbed EEF as they moved south. Mesolithic Ukraine seems to be the split between WHG-EHG.
    Last edited by ADW_1981; 07-04-2017 at 12:43 AM.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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    I get the impression now that the R1b-L754 line leading to L389, P297, M269 and L23 was east of the Balkans and the Vistula/Dniester line, in the area north of the Black Sea. Look at the P297 among those Mesolithic Baltic foragers, for example. It looks like the line from L754 to V88 was in the Balkans, west of the L389 line.

    Naturally, I'm just guessing.
    Last edited by rms2; 07-04-2017 at 06:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    We can also discard the idea that R1b came with pointed pottery from Siberia, which some people were still clinging to even after the finding of Villabruna
    Of course, we know that R1b is approximately 20,000 years old and that it could not possibly have originated with pointed pottery in Siberia. We are long past the point where it is useful to talk about generic R1b. We need to identify specific subclades and dates and associate them with specific cultures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GailT View Post
    Of course, we know that R1b is approximately 20,000 years old and that it could not possibly have originated with pointed pottery in Siberia. We are long past the point where it is useful to talk about generic R1b. We need to identify specific subclades and dates and associate them with specific cultures.
    Indeed, everything L754 and below seems to have already been west of the Ural by the LGM.

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    Yes it seems that R1b in the late Palaeolithic was in the late east gravettian culture. That is a big surprise because the gravettian was the last great pan European wave into a Europe before the farmers and starkly contrasting y groups in the hunters in the west and the east was not expected given the common cultural root in gravettian . Now it looks likely that R1b was harboured in the east gravettian. It seems likely that before expansion north towards the Baltic happened that P297 was in Ukraine. Villabruna c12000BC makes it likely P297 negative R1b was in the north Balkan area. All in all it looks like the main R1b zone by at least 12000BC stretches from the north Balkans to Ukraine in that period 12000-9000BC although the exact position within that was probably fluid and dynamic. As others have said it's likely that the P297 negative section lay more at the west side of this area, probably the Balkans while P297 lay in the more eastern part -probably Ukraine. How long before 12000BC that R1b was located in the carpathian/ Ukraine zone is unknown.AFAIK that east gravettian group in that zone ezpanded and contracted through the LGM, Dryas events etc
    Last edited by alan; 07-06-2017 at 08:38 AM.

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