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Thread: From R-L150 to R-CTS7822

  1. #1
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    From R-L150 to R-CTS7822

    Hi everyone

    Last year I got my FTDNA deep clade results: R-L150 and I tested negative for L584.

    A few days ago I received results from Geno2 and I am a bit confused.
    Apparently I am now R-CTS7822 and on the results page my "branch" does not go beyond L278, not even mentioning R-M269...

    Is this just a new classification system, or does this mean I do not belong to Ht 35 anymore?
    Apologies if my question sounds silly, but I am not an expert in this field, in fact I have only recently started researching into the subject.
    If anyone could point out any sources where I could find out more about R-CTS7822 it would be greatly appreciated.


    PS I just realised that there is a "Personal Genetics" page, which seems more appropriate for such queries. Tried to move the post but it does not seem possible.
    Last edited by kostop; 07-11-2013 at 01:45 PM.

  2. #2
    I am seeing you are a Greek. CTS7822 is the same as Z2110, then you are R-L23/Z2110, like the Italian Varipapa, but I have demonstrated he is an Arberesh, thus he comes from the Balkans.
    About M269 you should know that it isn't tested by Geno 2.0, but it tests two SNPs on the same level: S3 and S10. I bet that you are positive for these two SNPs.

    Anyway, as I am the theorist of the Italian Refugium of hg. R1b1 and subclade, I could say that yours is a subclade of mine: I am R-L23/Z2105+, L227-, L584-, and I suppose Z2110-.

    Welcome here.

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to Rathna For This Useful Post:

     TigerMW (07-11-2013)

  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
    I am seeing you are a Greek. CTS7822 is the same as Z2110, then you are R-L23/Z2110, like the Italian Varipapa, but I have demonstrated he is an Arberesh, thus he comes from the Balkans.
    About M269 you should know that it isn't tested by Geno 2.0, but it tests two SNPs on the same level: S3 and S10. I bet that you are positive for these two SNPs.

    Anyway, as I am the theorist of the Italian Refugium of hg. R1b1 and subclade, I could say that yours is a subclade of mine: I am R-L23/Z2105+, L227-, L584-, and I suppose Z2110-.

    Welcome here.
    Hi Rathna

    Thanks a lot for your response and for the information. It makes sense now.
    Today I transferred my results to FTDNA, they should normally be visible tomorrow.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by kostop View Post
    Hi Rathna

    Thanks a lot for your response and for the information. It makes sense now.
    Today I transferred my results to FTDNA, they should normally be visible tomorrow.
    Beyond you and Varipapa this SNPs has been tested also in 257843, whose name is now withheld, but I think he comes from Armenia. Then this subclade would be present in the Balkans till Armenia, and this could be interesting. Of course many will think that Balkan people came from Armenia, I, for what I have always supported, the other way around. Anyway this is a subclade of subclades of R-L23*, thus very far from the origin. My subclade (R-L23/Z2105+/L277-/L584-) is closer. Of course only the test of all the SNPs from Z2103 to Z2110 (and others to come) will respond our questions.

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by kostop View Post
    Today I transferred my results to FTDNA, they should normally be visible tomorrow.
    Hi Kostop,
    Are you the same as kit #N98739 with the unique DYS393=11 and has tested L584-?

    I think we are up to six CTS7822+ kits.
    257843 Jewish DNA Project ungrouped
    247019 R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project
    N29277 Italy Project
    N114393 White Surname Project STRs?
    N115176 Greek Arcadia Project STRs?
    N115142 German Project STRs?

    Anybody know if and when FTDNA will offer this as a SNP test? Ratha, should we be thinking about taking that test?

    Mike, this is a good thread with a great title. Could you move it to to the R1b Early Subclades sub-forum so we don't loose it?

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    Hi Kostop,
    Are you the same as kit #N98739 with the unique DYS393=11 and has tested L584-?

    I think we are up to six CTS7822+ kits.
    257843 Jewish DNA Project ungrouped
    247019 R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project
    N29277 Italy Project
    N114393 White Surname Project STRs?
    N115176 Greek Arcadia Project STRs?
    N115142 German Project STRs?

    Anybody know if and when FTDNA will offer this as a SNP test? Rathna, should we be thinking about taking that test?

    Mike, this is a good thread with a great title. Could you move it to to the R1b Early Subclades sub-forum so we don't loose it?
    I have searched so long who was 257843, and I explored the Jewish pool, but his name is withheld. Unfortunately many people hide their origin, and this is the worst thing for our research. We don't know if he is a Jew or if he claims to be, but to find this SNP amongst them isn't unexpected, but often these Jewish R1b are oriented to the Balkans like an origin.
    You ask me if we should do this test. Of course, because only excluding that we are positive, we may continue to think that these haplotypes are derived from ours. I'd say that we should do all the SNPs from Z2106 to Z2110 and others that will come out next.
    Last edited by Rathna; 07-16-2013 at 07:07 AM.

  8. #7
    About 257843, if I said he is probably from Armenia, it is because I understood his surname, of course I withhold for not doing polemics. He is already a subclade of R-Z2110, having the mutation CTS9219+. Then we could say that he is R-CTS9219+ .
    Of course it would be important for my theory that the more we go Eastwards from Italy and the more we find subclades of subclades.

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    Hi Kostop,
    Are you the same as kit #N98739 with the unique DYS393=11 and has tested L584-?

    I think we are up to six CTS7822+ kits.
    257843 Jewish DNA Project ungrouped
    247019 R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project
    N29277 Italy Project
    N114393 White Surname Project STRs?
    N115176 Greek Arcadia Project STRs?
    N115142 German Project STRs?

    Anybody know if and when FTDNA will offer this as a SNP test? Ratha, should we be thinking about taking that test?

    Mike, this is a good thread with a great title. Could you move it to to the R1b Early Subclades sub-forum so we don't loose it?
    Hi Joe B

    Yes, that's me. My DYS393=11 makes it quite difficult to find any matches.. :-)
    N98739 was my kit number when I ordered a deep clade test last year.
    I was recently assigned a new kit number when I transferred my Geno2 results to FTDNA (I don't have the number handy atm). This may have created some duplicate values. I have emailed FTDNA about this.

  10. #9
    Now we know from the last results of Geno 2.0 (and see the Morley's spreadsheet) that CTS7822, i.e. Z2110, is an autonomous subclade of R-L23*, on the same plane of Z2103/Z2105, then not a subclade of it.
    It's distribution is above all in Eastern Europe (considering Varipapa of Arberesh origin), but we have also a German now: Stoltz. But also Ware is CTS7822+, and he has been put in this subclade of the presumed R-L23/L150-, where not all are -: Ware is L150+. Then this should be a subclade of R-CTS7822+. Which form a cluster of these haplotypes is above all DYS434=10 (only one has 9), whereas all the other R-L23 have 9 and R-L584+ has 8. This is a very slow mutating marker.
    We don't understand the formation of this subclade: if for a presumed L150- (actually only Romitti and Seymour have it), or for the CTS7822+. I made the hypothesis that for their surnames they could be of Gypsy origin. Of course a R-L23 introgressed in them and not original from India.
    We know that 257843, 282121, N114224, N92413 are a subclade of R-CTS7822 for their CTS9219+.
    Last edited by Rathna; 07-29-2013 at 05:07 PM.

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
    Now we know from the last results of Geno 2.0 (and see the Morley's spreadsheet) that CTS7822, i.e. Z2110, is an autonomous subclade of R-L23*, on the same plane of Z2103/Z2105, then not a subclade of it.
    It's distribution is above all in Eastern Europe (considering Varipapa of Arberesh origin), but we have also a German now: Stoltz. But also Ware is CTS7822+, and he has been put in this subclade of the presumed R-L23/L150-, where not all are -: Ware is L150+. Then this should be a subclade of R-CTS7822+. Which form a cluster of these haplotypes is above all DYS434=10 (only one has 9), whereas all the other R-L23 have 9 and R-L584+ has 8. This is a very slow mutating marker.
    We don't understand the formation of this subclade: if for a presumed L150- (actually only Romitti and Seymour have it), or for the CTS7822+. I made the hypothesis that for their surnames they could be of Gypsy origin. Of course a R-L23 introgressed in them and not original from India.
    We know that 257843, 282121, N114224, N92413 are a subclade of R-CTS7822 for their CTS9219+.
    I posted about L23+ Z2103- Z2105- L51- on another thread and Rathna responded, but further discussion on SNP specifics would be off-topic for that thread so I'm quoting the response over here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
    This isn't true. See the last Morley's spreadsheet:
    No L23* so far, but because it doesn't exist probably. Why? Because also L23* had its mutations. Now we have:

    1) Z2103/Z2105
    its subclades: L277
    L150- (probably not true. If there is Ware, he is L150+ and Z2110+ (=CTS7822+))
    CTS7763/CTS8966
    CTS1848/PF3449/PF7580
    subclade L584 (and other SNPs of Silver etc.)

    2) CTS7822
    subclade CTS9219
    ...
    Certainly, or at least ultimately, L23* doesn't exist as no paragroup exists permanently except by definition. Sooner or later SNPs will be found to break down the paragroup.

    However, increased knowledge of early branching is still helpful.

    What kit #s are CTS7822 found in? Do we know those are Z2103- Z2105- or were they just no calls at those locations?

    I see that 257843, 282121, N114224, N92413 are their CTS9219+. Do we know what the result was at CTS7822? Were they no-calls? I assume so if you think CTS9219 is a subclade of CTS7822.

    P.S. I cut-off the final bit of Rathna's quote because that should probably be taken up in the general category thread on "Rathna's assessment on genetic materials".
    Last edited by TigerMW; 07-29-2013 at 05:54 PM.

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