Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 51

Thread: Correlations of various R1a and I subclades that might link with R1b subclades?

  1. #31
    Registered Users
    Posts
    7,570
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA (P)
    L21
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    We may have an R1a subclade, R1a-L664, that has a partial intersection with an R1b subclade.



    One possibility is that R1a-L664 and R1b-U106 were in some of the same ancient cultures. L664 is very light in frequency, though, and I haven't seen any scientific surveys with it. I guess we should dig up what Klyosov has on it although I don't think he tries to project frequencies.
    Given its age it cannot be ruled out that it crossed to Britain in the beaker period but I personally think it is more likey to be associated with Germanics in the isles. One thing about the Irish ones I would like to know is what are their surnames. That would help indicate when it arrived in Ireland to some degree.

  2. #32
    Legacy Account
    Posts
    7,362
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Nationality
    British
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    United Kingdom
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I guess we should dig up what Klyosov has on it ...
    Why? You have posting on this forum the real experts on R1a1a i.e. those who run the R1a1a and Subclades Project. One of them has already pointed out that Klyosov's work using STRs has been outdated by the discovery of the new SNPs. Given its amateurism and bias, it did not warrant any serious attention in the first place. I realise that this might not be obvious to those whose interests lie with another haplogroup and who have not been following the debate on R1a1a at all closely. But there are people posting in this forum whose work deserves respect.
    Last edited by Jean M; 06-20-2013 at 02:27 PM.

  3. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Jean M For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (12-10-2014),  ÁNLEIFR (04-24-2015)

  4. #33
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,070
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Why? You have posting on this forum the real experts on R1a1a i.e. those who run the R1a1a and Subclades Project. One of them has already pointed out that Klyosov's work using STRs has been outdated by the discovery of the new SNPs. Given its obvious amateurism and bias, it did not warrant any serious attention in the first place.
    I am not saying you do, but I don't have anything against Klyosov, per se. That doesn't mean I think some of his ideas aren't off, but he is a smart person and he documents what he says. I like his willingness to take a position whether I accept it or not.

    Everyone's work is outdated by the discovery of new SNPs, on the other hand I haven't found any papers on R1a similar to the Myres R1b/Holocene, Barlaresque/R1b, Busby/R1b, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    ..., and I haven't seen any scientific surveys with it. I guess we should dig up what Klyosov has on it....
    My preceding point (emboldened) was the lack of documentation, hence the need to look at whatever is out there.

    Are there broad papers out their on the R1a haplogroup that I'm missing?

    It goes without saying, I'm asking anyone out here on this forum who has knowledge to speak up. When I don't know who is or isn't an expert, I go on what I can see and read... although, I trend that way even with known experts.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 06-20-2013 at 02:37 PM.

  5. #34
    Registered Users
    Posts
    158
    Sex
    Nationality
    Irish
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-L126
    mtDNA (M)
    H3

    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Given its age it cannot be ruled out that it crossed to Britain in the beaker period but I personally think it is more likey to be associated with Germanics in the isles. One thing about the Irish ones I would like to know is what are their surnames. That would help indicate when it arrived in Ireland to some degree.

    Doing a crude check at the FTDNA Ireland project Gaelic names seem to be in the slight minority. That semargyl website used to have surnames publically available, if one had time you could have checked what their distant matches were.
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ysnp

  6. #35
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,718
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    I hope you are aware that the numbers speak very strongly against you. The very fact that you need to find some very exceptional cases to support your view is very telling. Also, are you saying that it would be totally impossible for these two people to have some Vikings among their ancestors. I am wondering what would you then say about two ethnic Arabs from Saudi Arabia who are L260+ (both are members of our project). Would it be impossible that some of their ancestors were Slavs? And if they don't have any Slavic ancestors, what would be the alternative hypothesis for the origin of L260?

    Anyway, I would rather assume that it should be perfectly possible for at least some Vikings to have their descendants spread to Saxony or even to Switzerland.
    ...
    Please note that we don't know any subcluster of Z284 that would be at least 2000 years old while being specifically associated with Germany, Austria or Switzerland.
    As you eventually conclude, the real issue is not the mere presence of a clade in a particular region, but rather its age--which we can only estimate from genetic differences in yDNA. You use the term subcluster, but of course singletons are also valid evidence--the difference between a singleton and a subcluster is primarily the sampling intensity. The age estimate of a singleton's branch-off has, of course, a larger confidence interval.

    So the real question is whether any Z284 south or east of the Baltic Sea is sufficiently differentiated from "Viking" Z284 (Scandinavian, British Isles, etc.) to suggest an anciently indigenous presence. JeanM gives as examples kits 182600 and 166846.

    - 182600 is closely related to 151268, who traces his patrilineage to Kongsberg in Norway. Both 182600 and 151268 publicly attribute their matrilineage to Norway.

    - 166846 has only 37 markers. The evidence to classify him as Z284+ is rather weak. He could reasonably fit into Z280.

    However, we do have some more enigmatic cases.

    - N23825 (whose ancestral town is slightly west of the modern Polish-German border) is genetically far away from anyone else in Z284+ L448- .

    - At the other extreme, 265538 (whose ancestral town is in central Poland) has--if we assume that his Nulls at DYS448 and DYS589 are rather recent mutations--a haplotype fairly close to both Z284 and Z280, despite his Z284+ SNP result. This suggests that his haplotype may actually be close to that of their common ancestor. In the YHRD database, he even has an exact 16-marker match in Iran!
    Last edited by lgmayka; 06-20-2013 at 03:43 PM.

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to lgmayka For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (12-10-2014)

  8. #36
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,682
    Sex
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-L1280>FGC41205
    mtDNA (M)
    H2a2(b)
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a-L1029>YP517
    mtDNA (P)
    H5a2

    Poland European Union
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    One possibility is that R1a-L664 and R1b-U106 were in some of the same ancient cultures. L664 is very light in frequency, though, and I haven't seen any scientific surveys with it. I guess we should dig up what Klyosov has on it although I don't think he tries to project frequencies.
    I used to like my old hypothesis that the ancestor of L664 was just “accidentally” brought to NW Europe with the wave of R1b migrants from Eastern Europe (maybe together with some very rare Z93* and Z283/2* lineages that are seen today in Western Europe). However, some recent results suggest that certain M417* lineages that are currently very rare could have been originally a part of the Corded Ware population in Western and/or Central Europe, which makes it much more likely that L664 has initially constituted a small North-Western part of the Corded Ware horizon that was subsequently dominated by the R1b newcomers. Most of such West European CW-related R1a species seem to have survived in the form of some dispersed and extremely rare lineages (like the four distantly related sublineages of the Western European cluster 5.E (Z280*) in our project). However, in the case of L664, they could have been pushed up to the North Sea where they managed to survive as a local North-Western (coastal? Frisian?) variety of the Pre-Germanic horizon and were subsequently strongly influenced by the expanding Proto-Germanic Jastorf culture, thus becoming a part of the Early Germanic world.
    Last edited by Michał; 06-20-2013 at 04:43 PM.

  9. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Michał For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (12-10-2014),  Hando (01-02-2015)

  10. #37
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,682
    Sex
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-L1280>FGC41205
    mtDNA (M)
    H2a2(b)
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a-L1029>YP517
    mtDNA (P)
    H5a2

    Poland European Union
    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    However, we do have some more enigmatic cases.
    - N23825 (whose ancestral town is slightly west of the modern Polish-German border) is genetically far away from anyone else in Z284+ L448- .
    I was not claiming that all Z284 people are descendants of the Scandinavians (or Norse Vikings for that matter), but only that the vast majority of them seem to be descendants of this particular subgroup of Germanic people. Also, even if the above individual does not show any clear association with Scandinavia (other than his Z284 membership itself), this does not provide any evidence for a substantial presence of R1a-Z284 in Jastorf, which was the main subject of my discussion with JeanM.

    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    - At the other extreme, 265538 (whose ancestral town is in central Poland) has--if we assume that his Nulls at DYS448 and DYS589 are rather recent mutations--a haplotype fairly close to both Z284 and Z280, despite his Z284+ SNP result. This suggests that his haplotype may actually be close to that of their common ancestor. In the YHRD database, he even has an exact 16-marker match in Iran!
    Despite his Polish origin and all those confusing matches, we (Mariusz and me) were able to predict with very high certainty (based on his STR results alone) not only that he belongs to the Z284 branch but also that he is a member of a very specific potential sub-branch of Z284 (cluster 8.A3). Importantly, this characteristic STR-based cluster is known to be represented in Norway, Sweden and England, which is pretty consistent with the potential Viking ancestry (although Mariusz rather suspects some Gothic associations, with which I would rather disagree).
    Last edited by Michał; 06-20-2013 at 04:31 PM.

  11. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Michał For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (12-10-2014),  Gray Fox (04-08-2014),  Hando (01-02-2015)

  12. #38
    Registered Users
    Posts
    7,570
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA (P)
    L21
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    I used to like my old hypothesis that the ancestor of L664 was just “accidentally” brought to NW Europe with the wave of R1b migrants from Eastern Europe (maybe together with some very rare Z93* and Z283/2* lineages that are seen today in Western Europe). However, some recent results suggest that certain M417* lineages that are currently very rare could have been originally a part of the Corded Ware population in Western and/or Central Europe, which makes it much more likely that L664 has initially constituted a small North-Western part of the Corded Ware horizon that was subsequently dominated by the R1b newcomers. Most of such West European CW-related R1a species seem to have survived in the form of some dispersed and extremely rare lineages (like the four distantly related sublineages of the Western European cluster 5.E (Z280*) in our project). However, in the case of L664, they could have been pushed up to the North Sea where they managed to survive as a local North-Western (coastal? Frisian?) variety of the Pre-Germanic horizon and were subsequently strongly influenced by the expanding Proto-Germanic Jastorf culture, thus becoming a part of the Early Germanic world.
    That makes sense to me. Given that at least some R1a filtered into Corded Ware and Corded Ware had a presence as far west as the Rhine, it has always surprised me that today R1a seems to have been rare among the Germanics expanding west (or so it seems). There are a couple of possibilities. Firstly maybe we have the wrong idea about the amount of R1a in corded ware based on that first corded ware site in Germany. The Polish corded yDNA recently tested was not R1b. Unless we want to go down the Anatole killer R1b root it might be worth considering that R1a was not dominant in corded ware. I think the answer is in the tree posted above and it also applies to R1b. Back in 3000BC. Most of the R1a lineages that survive today are clades or lineages that were just coming into existence in the corded ware period. Very like the L11 situation with beaker. Also like R1b, is the rapid expansion in the copper age across a huge chunk of Europe. Put those together and that must mean that it was a small minority in the population for a considerable period, at least many centuries - and that is assuming they retain control of the resources and power to keep undergoing an expansion. That clearly doesnt always happen.

  13. #39
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,070
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    I've been taking the R1a origins thread off on tangents so I'll copy over some information here. I'm trying to figure out how I1 subclades, R1a subclades and U106 might relate positively or inversely relate to each other to see if that helps us understand where U106 came from, thereby, helping us back on the trail to the L11 MRCA as well.

    Several I1 subclades are critical in Germanic speaking areas where U106 is prevalent. Of course, the guru of hg I is Ken Nordtvedt so I'll repost these links related to I1.

    http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/T...r%20Hg%20I.pdf

    Here are the estimates for the major subgroups of I1.
    http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/T...8+%20Z60-.pptx
    http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/T...I1%20Z60+.pptx
    http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/T...1d%20L22+.pptx
    http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/T...1xL22xZ58.pptx

    Here is the message board for Hg I for the month of June if anyone wants to follow along.
    http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...ROUP-I/2013-06

    Ken Nordtvedt said, on 03/15/2013 on Rootsweb,
    "This reinforces my hunch that the origins of I1 some 4500 years ago will be more to the east than earlier expectations --- maybe Prussia or Pomerania. Perhaps the late blooming I1 moved up into the north German plain along the Elbe corridor, while M223+ Z161+ moved up using more the Danube/Rhine route? My prejudice for the pre-agriculture staging area for haplogroup I remains the middle Danube basin (present day Bohemia or thereabouts)."
    http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-03/1363359122

    Pomerania ranges from about Warnow to Gdansk along the Baltic. Old Prussia is the continuation east/northeast along the Baltic, or essentially Lithuania. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Prussians

    I received the clarification from Ken. He is talking about the Old Prussian tribal area (essentially Lithuania) so his area of focus is from about Warnow, Germany east through Lithuania. The Old Prussians are thought to be Baltic speaking.

    Ken Nordtvedt said, on 06/26/2013 on Rootsweb,
    "For most of my nine years in the hobby I have believed there is a close association of U106+ R1b..... with I1 x L22
    But by Prussia I mean the geographical heartland of the peoples once called Prussians, not the political empire that the Prussians built up among the German peoples in historic times."
    http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-06/1372263039

  14. #40
    Registered Users
    Posts
    28
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    L448-YP355-YP5598

    United States of America England Scotland Germany Ireland Norway
    Could the L448 have split off from the Neuri who are considered Proto-Slavs?

Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. New Subclades
    By mwauthy in forum FTDNA
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 03-19-2019, 03:06 AM
  2. Best test for J subclades?
    By Ust-Ishim in forum J
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 02-09-2019, 08:59 PM
  3. R-L48 Subclades
    By MBW1986 in forum R1b-U106
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 08-03-2017, 11:55 PM
  4. Early subclades of R1a
    By Michał in forum R1a General
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 08-26-2016, 02:40 AM
  5. Replies: 83
    Last Post: 01-21-2016, 07:51 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •