Page 4 of 24 FirstFirst ... 2345614 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 239

Thread: what is the latest thinking on were R1a originated

  1. #31
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,682
    Sex
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-L1280>FGC41205
    mtDNA (M)
    H2a2(b)
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a-L1029>YP517
    mtDNA (P)
    H5a2

    Poland European Union
    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    IF R1a had been extremely dominant in the pre-Yamnaya western steppe people back to the year dot in hunting-gathering times then we would expect incredibly old branching within the zone. To me (and this is true of R1b too) R1a looks like elite lineage expansions rather than representing large chunks of a population in a broad area for a very deep depth of time. If it had been the latter you would see a myriad of very deep branching in the same locality.
    The main problem here is that there is actually no Y-DNA haplogroup in Eastern Europe that would meet your above requirement. So it seems that R1a and R1b are at least not worse than any other option, while in some respects they are much better candidates than any other haplogroup.

    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    (other than a small NW European group who I suspect are only placed there due to sampling bias)
    I think you are making a major mistake here. It is well documented that the North-Western branch L664 (DYS88=10) is indeed nearly absent in other parts of Europe. I have once estimated its frequency in North-Western Europe to reach maximally 1.5-3%, but Martin Voorwinden, a co-admin of our L664 section, suspects that it is only 0.2-0.8%. L664 is present in all countries located around the North Sea, including England, Belgium, Netherlands, Northern Germany, Denmark and Norway. Notably, it is relatively frequent in Cornwall and Ireland but very rare in Wales and Scotland (and practically absent in Iceland). All this suggests that the most recent common ancestor of all L664 members could have lived somewhere on the North Sea coast. I would suggest Frisia as the most likely center of expansion, which is consistent with some data suggesting that the DYS338=10 frequency there may reach 3% (though the sample was relatively small). In addition to some peaceful expansion along the maritime trading ways, the two major waves of L664 migrations were likely associated with the Anglo-Saxon invasion (known for the significant Frisian contribution to this process) and the more recent Norman conquest of Britain that was directed towards England, Cornwall and Ireland, but not towards Wales or Scotland. If I remember correctly, England, Netherlands and Germany are the only countries where all four major subclusters of L664 (A, B, C and D) seem to be present.
    Last edited by Michał; 06-19-2013 at 09:47 PM.

  2. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Michał For This Useful Post:

     Hando (02-09-2015),  Jean M (06-19-2013),  RVBLAKE (06-14-2016)

  3. #32
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,070
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    ... It is well documented that the North-Western branch L664 (DYS88=10) is indeed nearly absent in other parts of Europe. I have once estimated its frequency in North-Western Europe to reach maximally 1.5-3%, but Martin Voorwinden, a co-admin of our L664 section, suspects that it is only 0.2-0.8%. L664 is present in all countries located around the North Sea, including England, Belgium, Netherlands, Northern Germany, Denmark and Norway. Notably, it is relatively frequent in Cornwall and Ireland but very rare in Wales and Scotland (and practically absent in Iceland). All this suggests that the most recent common ancestor of all L664 members could have lived somewhere on the North Sea coast. I would suggest Frisia as the most likely center of expansion, which is consistent with some data suggesting that the DYS338=10 frequency there may reach 3% (though the sample was relatively small). In addition to some peaceful expansion along the maritime trading ways, the two major waves of L664 migrations were likely associated with the Anglo-Saxon invasion (known for the significant Frisian contribution to this process) and the more recent Norman conquest of Britain that was directed towards England, Cornwall and Ireland, but not towards Wales or Scotland. If I remember correctly, England, Netherlands and Germany are the only countries where all four major subclusters of L664 (A, B, C and D) seem to present.
    L664 is quite interesting. What are the TMRCA estimates for it?

  4. #33
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,682
    Sex
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-L1280>FGC41205
    mtDNA (M)
    H2a2(b)
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a-L1029>YP517
    mtDNA (P)
    H5a2

    Poland European Union
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    L664 is quite interesting. What are the TMRCA estimates for it?
    Rozhanskii and Klyosov suggest about 4500 ybp and this seems to be consistent with some other calculations I have seen.

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to Michał For This Useful Post:

     Hando (02-09-2015)

  6. #34
    Registered Users
    Posts
    7,570
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA (P)
    L21
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    The main problem here is that there is actually no Y-DNA haplogroup in Eastern Europe that would meet your above requirement. So it seems that R1a and R1b are at least not worse than any other option, while in some respects they are much better candidates than any other haplogroup.


    I think you are making a major mistake here. It is well documented that the North-Western branch L664 (DYS88=10) is indeed nearly absent in other parts of Europe. I have once estimated its frequency in North-Western Europe to reach maximally 1.5-3%, but Martin Voorwinden, a co-admin of our L664 section, suspects that it is only 0.2-0.8%. L664 is present in all countries located around the North Sea, including England, Belgium, Netherlands, Northern Germany, Denmark and Norway. Notably, it is relatively frequent in Cornwall and Ireland but very rare in Wales and Scotland (and practically absent in Iceland). All this suggests that the most recent common ancestor of all L664 members could have lived somewhere on the North Sea coast. I would suggest Frisia as the most likely center of expansion, which is consistent with some data suggesting that the DYS338=10 frequency there may reach 3% (though the sample was relatively small). In addition to some peaceful expansion along the maritime trading ways, the two major waves of L664 migrations were likely associated with the Anglo-Saxon invasion (known for the significant Frisian contribution to this process) and the more recent Norman conquest of Britain that was directed towards England, Cornwall and Ireland, but not towards Wales or Scotland. If I remember correctly, England, Netherlands and Germany are the only countries where all four major subclusters of L664 (A, B, C and D) seem to be present.

    Fair enough. Looking at it, its a very early split but with a coalecense much later around 2500BC which indeed leaves a lot of possibilities. Seems to me like it could have arrived with corded ware and then later been driven further west in historic times. I think that is in line with what you are suggesting. Seems reasonable to me. I am only dipping a toe in the R1a subject and was a bit too hasty to point to the isles bias.

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to alan For This Useful Post:

     Hando (02-09-2015)

  8. #35
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,070
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Thank you for the estimate for R1a-L664.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    Rozhanskii and Klyosov suggest about 4500 ybp and this seems to be consistent with some other calculations I have seen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    ... It is well documented that the North-Western branch L664 (DYS88=10) is indeed nearly absent in other parts of Europe. I have once estimated its frequency in North-Western Europe to reach maximally 1.5-3%, but Martin Voorwinden, a co-admin of our L664 section, suspects that it is only 0.2-0.8%. L664 is present in all countries located around the North Sea, including England, Belgium, Netherlands, Northern Germany, Denmark and Norway. Notably, it is relatively frequent in Cornwall and Ireland but very rare in Wales and Scotland (and practically absent in Iceland). All this suggests that the most recent common ancestor of all L664 members could have lived somewhere on the North Sea coast. I would suggest Frisia as the most likely center of expansion, which is consistent with some data suggesting that the DYS338=10 frequency there may reach 3% ...
    As others will tell you, I'm pretty consistently against using frequency as an origin indicator. That's slightly off topic, though.

    Just looking at this information calling it the mysterious haplogroup XYZ, I would almost guess R1a-L664 was some kind of Rhenish Bell Beaker component. Of course the lack of showing in Wales/Scotland would lead me to think it being a little more of a latecomer.

    What's the showing for L664 in Ireland? and Cornwall?

    How do we know L664 has a NW Europe origin?

    Has any scientific study surveyed L664 across Europe?
    Last edited by TigerMW; 06-20-2013 at 10:13 AM.

  9. #36
    Registered Users
    Posts
    7,570
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA (P)
    L21
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    The main problem here is that there is actually no Y-DNA haplogroup in Eastern Europe that would meet your above requirement. So it seems that R1a and R1b are at least not worse than any other option, while in some respects they are much better candidates than any other haplogroup..
    Are you sure that is correct? The difference seems to me that while virtually all R1a and R1b split from a common ancestor node around 4000BC or so that wouldnt be true for haplogroups like I, G etc which on a Euroasian wide scale have much older interclades/branching nodes. I realise most local groups coalesce in a much later period but that is not the same thing as the depth of interclade/common node between them across Eurasia. That is much much deeper for I, G etc. I think that is a huge distinction that sets the vast majority of R1a and R1b apart from the rest. They clearly have a presence that only really became of any significance late by prehistoric standards in the late Neolithic/copper age.

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to alan For This Useful Post:

     Hando (02-09-2015)

  11. #37
    Registered Users
    Posts
    7,570
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA (P)
    L21
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Thank you for the estimate for R1a-L664.




    As others will tell you, I'm pretty consistently against using frequency as an origin indicator. That's slightly off topic, though.

    Just looking at this information calling it the mysterious haplogroup XYZ, I would almost guess R1a-L664 was some kind of Rhenish Bell Beaker component. Of course the lack of showing in Wales/Scotland would lead me to it being a little more of a latecomer.

    What's the showing for L664 in Ireland? and Cornwall?

    How do we know L664 has a NW Europe origin?

    Has any scientific study surveyed L664 across Europe?

    I think the problem with this one is its branching is much deeper than its coalescence. That leaves its pre-coalescence history in the dark. Coalescence only gives the minimum age and that could simply represent the survivors before it was further distributed around Europe at a different period. I think all we can say is that somewhere back in 2500BC there was basically one important guy who was part of a lineage which has existed somewhere for a couple of millenia before that. I would say the most likely scenario is an arrival in Corded Ware times in somewhere like Holland. There are some beaker burials in eastern Britain that are very close to corded ware/single grave in nature. It would almost be surprising if no R1a mixed into the beaker population at all although it does look like a very rare event in western Europe and like I said this is just one guy c. 2500BC. The fact his descendants are scatter widely across NW Europe may be a multi-period thing though and that may have happened later if his descendants were swept up among the Germanic heading west.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to alan For This Useful Post:

     Hando (02-09-2015)

  13. #38
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,070
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I think the problem with this one is its branching is much deeper than its coalescence. That leaves its pre-coalescence history in the dark. Coalescence only gives the minimum age and that could simply represent the survivors before it was further distributed around Europe at a different period. I think all we can say is that somewhere back in 2500BC there was basically one important guy who was part of a lineage which has existed somewhere for a couple of millenia before that. I would say the most likely scenario is an arrival in Corded Ware times in somewhere like Holland. There are some beaker burials in eastern Britain that are very close to corded ware/single grave in nature. It would almost be surprising if no R1a mixed into the beaker population at all although it does look like a very rare event in western Europe and like I said this is just one guy c. 2500BC. The fact his descendants are scatter widely across NW Europe may be a multi-period thing though and that may have happened later if his descendants were swept up among the Germanic heading west.
    Yes, after a second look, R1a-L664 could have been involved in the southern input into the formation of the Germanic tribes.

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to TigerMW For This Useful Post:

     Hando (02-09-2015)

  15. #39
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,302
    Sex
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Ethnicity
    100% European
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    DF27>Z195>FGC23196
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a1a2a

    United States of America United Kingdom Germany Ireland Scotland Wales
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Thank you for the estimate for R1a-L664.




    As others will tell you, I'm pretty consistently against using frequency as an origin indicator. That's slightly off topic, though.

    Just looking at this information calling it the mysterious haplogroup XYZ, I would almost guess R1a-L664 was some kind of Rhenish Bell Beaker component. Of course the lack of showing in Wales/Scotland would lead me to think it being a little more of a latecomer.

    What's the showing for L664 in Ireland? and Cornwall?

    How do we know L664 has a NW Europe origin?

    Has any scientific study surveyed L664 across Europe?
    Could this possibly be linked with the Flemish?

  16. #40
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,070
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    Could this possibly be linked with the Flemish?
    Alan would like to look at the surnames of R1a-L664 people in Ireland. That might be telling.

    Strangely, the R1a haplogroup project doesn't have the Y DNA SNP report screen turned on so I'll have to download the haplotypes and check for 388=10, a proxy for L664.

Page 4 of 24 FirstFirst ... 2345614 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 01-24-2020, 11:06 PM
  2. Replies: 116
    Last Post: 01-11-2019, 12:39 PM
  3. Thinking about H 67
    By firemonkey in forum H
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-24-2017, 04:29 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •