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Thread: what is the latest thinking on were R1a originated

  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    ...


    So far, the Z93* paragroup is represented by just one very specific lineage in England, although there is also one lineage in US (of unknown origin) and two independent lineages in Germany and Italy, respectively, while the much undertested populations of Eastern Europe and West Asia are represented by as many as nine independent sublineages of Z93* (some of them represented by multiple members, just like the English lineage), which is of course very telling.


    ...
    That American is now confused too:

    "Or is it time to saddle up my steed and ride off into the steppes sunset searching for my ancestral homeland...and to think, not so long ago I used to tell folks I was "English" when they asked!" https://www.facebook.com/R1a1a?filter=2

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    It is not low if trace amounts of Z93* and Z283* are considered in England which is not surprising considering R1a1 overall in England is low.
    It is very low when you take into account the size of the sample tested (and then compare it with the appropriate numbers for West Asia and Eastern Europe).


    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    I do not agree that the diversity of Z645 is the highest in Eastern Europe as ~95-99% of R1a1 there is just one subclade of Z645 (Z283) unlike say in Armenia and Anatolia which have a more balanced distribution of Z93 and Z283.
    Maybe if considering the North-Western part of Eastern Europe (like Belarus or Lithuania), you would be right, but I was actually talking about the easternmost part of Eastern Europe (as a potential homeland of Z645) where the contribution of Z93 is very significant (exceeding the contribution of Z283 in Anatolia and Armenia).


    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    The linguists chronology is wrong. They can't explain how Prakrit words appear in Sumerian texts ("prae-Indo-Aryan" http://books.google.com/books?id=-PsUAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA166).
    IMO, Avestan material remembers the LGM when severe cold forced the Aryan chief Yama to take his folk underground.
    Do you suggest a kind of a world-wide conspiracy among the linguists? Or maybe all these renowned linguists who reject your chronology are simply not competent enough to be able to properly interpret all available data (including those putative Pra-Indo-Aryan loanwords in Sumerian)?

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I was wondering if you would expand on where in eastern Europe you think most likely the expansion c. 4000-3000bc started from?
    I’m afraid that I am unable to answer your question with any confidence.
    I can of course provide some more or less plausible scenarios, but the truth is that all of them will be just my wild guesses.

    The main problem here is that there is no strong archaeological connection that would allow us to securely derive the Corded Ware culture from any earlier Late Neolithic culture in Europe (including those in Eastern, Central or Western Europe). However, assuming that R1a-M417 was somehow involved in the putative westward expansion of the Corded Ware culture (starting from about 3000 BC) and at least with the appearance of the Poltavka culture (about 2700 BC, at the middle Volga river), considered to be the most likely predecessor of Sintashta and Andronovo (but also Srubna), I can suspect that R1a-M417 was at least partially associated with the Yamna horizon (and thus with some Pre-Yamna cultures). On the other hand, the structure of the R1a tree and the lack of any evident correlation between the distribution of different subclades of R1a and the distribution of different branches of IE (except the two major Satem branches), make me strongly suspect that it was rather the R1b-rich population that spoke PIE (both Early PIE (Proto-Indo-Hittite) and Late PIE). Thus, we also need to find a place for R1b on the steppe, and all this together requires both R1a and R1b to be a part of the Yamna horizon that covered the most part of the Eurasian steppe in the middle of the fourth millennium BC. Since in such scenario R1b would need to have been present at least in the Western part of the Yamna horizon (from where the expansion to Anatolia, but also to Southern and Western Europe could have started), this makes the Eastern (or North-Central-Eastern) part of Yamna the most likely place where R1a was present in the Pre-Yamna period. This, in turn, makes the Repin and Late Khvalynsk cultures the relatively likely reservoirs of R1a-M417 for that period.

    If all above is true (which is of course far from being proven), this would have some serious consequences regarding the most likely scenarios explaining the much earlier locations/migrations of both R1a and R1b people (and their relationship to some very early stages of the IE development). Below is one my hypothetical scenarios that I consider quite likely (at least at the current stage of our knowledge).


    The R1a (including M17* and SRY1532.2*) people could have been present in Eastern Europe at least since the Mesolithic, and it seems likely that they formed the Early Neolithic Dnieper-Donets culture. Their offshoot could have formed a closely related Samara culture, where the R1a-M417 clade could have become the most frequent R1a lineage. At the same time, the R1b-M269 (or R1b-P297) folk could have been represented by the North Caspian (Seroglazovo/Elshanka) culture, showing some similarity (relationship?) to the East Caspian (or South-East Caspian) Neolithic horizon, probably derived from the Early Neolithic Jeitun Culture in Southern Turkmenistan. The North Caspian culture could have expanded about 5000-4500 BC, strongly influencing the neighboring Samara culture and overrunning the R1a people in Dnieper-Donets. This would result in the creation of a new R1b-dominated Sredny Stog culture where only some R1a(xM417) remnants could have survived.

    The situation could have been completely different in the presumably R1a-M417-dominated Samara culture, where intensive contacts with the R1b people could have resulted in the formation of the Indo-europeanized (Satem-speaking) Khvalynsk population. By contrast to the above-postulated replacement of R1a (Dnieper-Donets) by R1b (Sredny Stog), the Khvalynsk culture could have remained mostly R1a-M417, and if there was any significant contribution of the R1b men to the Khvalynsk genetic pool, it could have remained on a very minimal level. Alternatively, those hypothetical R1a-R1b interactions in Khvalynsk could have had a transient character, with the R1b people leaving Khvalinsk very soon and moving further west (joining Sredny Stog or forming Lower Michailovka group?). Later on, the IE-speaking and R1a-rich Khvalynsk culture could have evolved into two main groupings, with one of them moving gradually west (R1a-CTS4385) and north-west (R1a-Z283), thus giving rise to the Corded Ware horizon, while the R1a-Z93 group could have initially stayed in the original place where they were likely to adopt some new cultural traits that were spread by the R1b-dominated “Yamna-proper” group. This transformation of R1a-Z93 into a part of the Yamna horizon could have been associated with the intensive contacts with the Centum-speaking R1b-Z2105 (Proto-Graeco-Armenian?) people who could have become the major R1b group on the steppe after the sister branch R1b-L51 (Proto-Italo-Celto-Germanic?) has left the North-Pontic region, moving to Balkans and then along the Danube to Central and Western Europe.

    Of course, some of the R1a-Z93 people (mostly R1a-Z94) have subsequently moved east (and then south), spreading the Proto-Indo-Iranian language to Central Asia. It should be noted, however, that the suggested late interaction between the R1a-Z93 and R1b-Z2105 people (within the broad Yamna horizon) could have been reflected by certain specific linguistic (and cultural?) similarities that are sometimes suggested for Indo-Aryan (Sanskrit) and ancient Greek.

    Theoretically, the entire hypothetical North Pontic R1b group could have produced at least three waves of IE-speaking people (Anatolian, Graeco-Armenian and Italo-Celto-Germanic), although I would rather be inclined to suggest that the Anatolian branch of IE was not connected to this particular group of R1b people. Instead, I would rather see the separation of the Anatolian IE branch taking place much earlier (which would be consistent with the much larger genetic and linguistic distance to the remaining IE subgroupings). Therefore, my hypothesis assumes that the Pre-Anatolians (mostly R1b-L389(xP297) and R1b-V88) have rather stayed in the South-Eastern Caspian region where they could have been involved in some intensive interbreeding with the neighboring Neolithic populations (mostly J2a?), so their subsequent migrations to West Asia are not easy to follow using the Y-DNA traces. However, I would expect that there were at least several waves of such migrations towards West Asia, including Hittites, Hyksos and Kassites. All these hypothetical migrations are supposed to have taken place at a relatively late date (2000-1500 BC?) and they could have been forced by the increasing pressure from the expanding Proto-Indo-Iranian people. Also, this could have been related to some significant improvement of the military capabilities of those “Proto-Anatolians”, which was probably associated with the introduction of some new warfare technologies, including of course the chariot that has been developed by their Northern Indo-Iranian neighbors shortly before that period.

    As for the Hyksos, I must admit that I like the “crazy” theory suggesting that they could have been a relatively small IE-derived group that has managed to preserve their original R1b-V88 haplogroup while switching from the IE language first to some Semitic dialect (when settling in Palestine) and then to the Old Egyptian language (when ruling this country). Eventually, some of them (who survived the Egyptian “revolution”) could have been forced to leave Egypt, possibly spreading a related (Proto-Chadic?) dialect further south. I have once consulted this hypothesis with some linguists but they were unwilling to either accept or definitely exclude the possibility that Proto-Chadic could have been derived from Old Egyptian (both belonging to the Afro-Asiatic family of languages).

    The last IE branch that needs to be somehow placed in the above scenario is Tocharian. Of course, the most common view seems to be that the Tocharian-speaking people were mostly R1a members (as suggested by the aDNA analysis of the Tarim mummies). However, according to the above scenario, the only way to incorporate R1a into the Tocharian genetic pool would be to mix them with some Indo-Iranian people. Therefore, it seems more likely that the original haplogoup of people representing the Tocharian branch of IE was rather R1b-M269*, R1b-M73 or R1b-P297*. Of course, it is possible that the Tocharian-speaking people could have assimilated some neighbors representing other haplogroups (including not only R1a but also J2a, both present in large amounts among the Uyghurs living in the Tarim basin in whom the R1b-M73, R1b-M269 and R1b(xM269,M73) haplogroups have also been found).


    Please keep in mind that all this is highly speculative and I am perfectly aware that many elements of the above scenario are very controversial (to say the least).

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    Yima is a shepherd character from the Vendidad who first received God/Ahura Mazda/Ormazd's message of good and enacted on this in several ways. Everything about the story of Yima fits the context of the Eurasian steppes perfectly; his being a shepherd, constant mention of "[replenishment of] flocks/herds", particularly earth, cold and sun's affect on said flocks/herds. As does the constant mentioning of fire, which we know full well was a part of the Indo-Iranian cult.

    The phrase "six hundred winters" is certainly vague, but given the content of the rest of the Vendidad and the identification of Aryanam Vaejah with most of the year being "winter", it's far more plausible that phrase is related to AV than a prehistoric LGM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michał
    The last IE branch that needs to be somehow placed in the above scenario is Tocharian. Of course, the most common view seems to be that the Tocharian-speaking people were mostly R1a members (as suggested by the aDNA analysis of the Tarim mummies). However, according to the above scenario, the only way to incorporate R1a into the Tocharian genetic pool would be to mix them with some Indo-Iranian people. Therefore, it seems more likely that the original haplogoup of people representing the Tocharian branch of IE was rather R1b-M269*, R1b-M73 or R1b-P297*. Of course, it is possible that the Tocharian-speaking people could have assimilated some neighbors representing other haplogroups (including not only R1a but also J2a, both present in large amounts among the Uyghurs living in the Tarim basin in whom the R1b-M73, R1b-M269 and R1b(xM269,M73) haplogroups have also been found).
    I've personally always stayed away from the Tocharian question because the Silk Road and various steppe displacements must have shifted about the frequencies and removed/added some new subclades. For all we know, most of the R1b subclades presently found in Xinjiang might be Silk Road era introductions. The J2 may itself be from Saka-speaking Indo-Iranians who entered the Tarim from the Pamiri (SW) side. We know Y-DNA J2, R2a and L are all found in wildly varying frequencies around the isolated Pamirs today, as well as the expected R1a.

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  7. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    ...
    Do you suggest a kind of a world-wide conspiracy among the linguists? Or maybe all these renowned linguists who reject your chronology are simply not competent enough to be able to properly interpret all available data (including those putative Pra-Indo-Aryan loanwords in Sumerian)?
    No, but the pressure to follow precedent and to conform is certainly there in academia. If you recall Tibor had mentioned that to get their paper published they had to adhere to the Zhiv method which they disagreed with.

    The chronology can differ quite a bit:
    http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.o...1567/1090.full



    "Our main result is a unimodal posterior distribution for the age of Proto-Indo-European centred at 8400 years before Present with 95% highest posterior density interval equal to 7100–9800 years before Present." http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...743.x/abstract

    THE PALEOLITHIC CONTINUITY PARADIGM FOR THE ORIGINS OF INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGES http://www.continuitas.org/intro.html

    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    Yima is a shepherd character from the Vendidad who first received God/Ahura Mazda/Ormazd's message of good and enacted on this in several ways. Everything about the story of Yima fits the context of the Eurasian steppes perfectly; his being a shepherd, constant mention of "[replenishment of] flocks/herds", particularly earth, cold and sun's affect on said flocks/herds
    ...
    In Indic mythology Yama is the lord of the underworld which is quite in line with the second Fargard - people and their possessions moving underground due to the cold.

    "Therefore make thee a Vara, long as a riding-ground on every side of the square, and thither bring the seeds of sheep and oxen, of men, of dogs, of birds, and of red blazing fires. Therefore make thee a Vara, long as a riding-ground on every side of the square, to be an abode for man; a Vara, long as a riding-ground on every side of the square, for oxen and sheep."

    Ahura Mazda warns him of an upcoming catastrophe: "O fair Yima, son of Vivaŋhat! Upon the material world the evil winters are about to fall, that shall bring the fierce, deadly frost; upon the material world the evil winters are about to fall ..."
    Ahura Mazda advises Yima to construct a Vara (Avestan: enclosure) in the form of a multi-level cavern underground ... This he is to populate with the fittest of men and women; and with two of every animal, bird and plant; and supply with food and water gathered the previous summer.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamshid

    "son of Vivaŋhat" cf. http://www.pantheon.org/articles/v/vivasvat.html

    R1b is very old in Africa, but for some reason R1a1 is almost absent. Is it possible this has to do with their respective refuges in Europe during LGM where France was cold steppe and Iberia and Italy forested? The latter perhaps sustained a larger population than the cold steppe, and recovered faster, and this still shows up as the present distribution in western Europe between R1b and R1a.

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  9. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    No, but the pressure to follow precedent and to conform is certainly there in academia. If you recall Tibor had mentioned that to get their paper published they had to adhere to the Zhiv method which they disagreed with.

    The chronology can differ quite a bit:
    [url]http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/366/1567/1090.full[url]
    ...
    "Our main result is a unimodal posterior distribution for the age of Proto-Indo-European centred at 8400 years before Present with 95% highest posterior density interval equal to 7100–9800 years before Present." http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...743.x/abstract ....
    I hesitate to respond as we can easily dive way off topic into linguistics, but I think there are some basic logical issues related to archaeology that need to be addressed that make some of these aging estimates questionable.

    The base PIE lexicon includes words for items that can not be attested to by archaeology in the timeframes in the same region as described above. That does not mean there wasn't a pre-PIE or something of the like but full PIE couldn't have come together without all of the base lexicon having real correlations. It is for those reasons, I lean away from the Gray/Atkinson and Renfrew kind of aging. We've got a hard edge on the earliest dates for full PIE... We could call it the PIE MRCA if that helps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I hesitate to respond as we can easily dive way off topic into linguistics, but I think there are some basic logical issues related to archaeology that need to be addressed that make some of these aging estimates questionable.
    It is difficult, if not impossible, to disassociate Y-R from the PIE issue. For me it is the key reason what makes that tiny part of our DNA is so interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    The base PIE lexicon includes words for items that can not be attested to by archaeology in the timeframes in the same region as described above. That does not mean there wasn't a pre-PIE or something of the like but full PIE couldn't have come together without all of the base lexicon having real correlations. It is for those reasons, I lean away from the Gray/Atkinson and Renfrew kind of aging. We've got a hard edge on the earliest dates for full PIE... We could call it the PIE MRCA if that helps.
    Anthony uses the Pre-Proto-Indo-European nomenclature for the language of the European foragers that later became Proto-Indo-European.

    "The Bug-Dniester culture grew out of Mesolithic forager cultures that dwelt in the region since the end of the last Ice Age."
    "the incoming pioneers spoke a non–Indo-European language, and the foragers spoke a Pre-Proto-Indo-European"
    "The foragers' language might have been part of the broad language family from which Proto-Indo-European later emerged, although, since the ultimate fate of the Bug-Dniester culture was extinction and assimilation, their dialect probably died with their culture." http://books.google.com/books?id=0FDqf415wqgC&pg=PA148

    I can accept this distinction - that pre-PIE speaking Europeans were the fore-runners of the later PIE.
    Last edited by parasar; 07-29-2013 at 08:18 PM.

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    @Michal

    Thank you for outlining your ideas. very interesting. I like the way your model tries to take into account both the R1 links to later languages. Some aspects I have never considered too. The basic problem when dealing with the steppes is its had such a colourful history and nomads can jjust up sticks. So it probably the hardest place in the world to infer the past from modern patterns. The more I read on the steppes the more complex the potentially genetic situation I can see there in the past with different inputs from the Palaeolithic, Mesolithic, Neolithic etc even before we reach the copper age. There could have been quite a few yDNA lines in the pre-mobile pastoralism period.

    The Neolithic-steppe frontier seems to have been a lot more porous than the soft focus summaries would give the impression of it being. I find your Stedny Stog observation interesting. Craniological material suggests they were a mix of steppe and farmer elements. This has also been noted for the Skelya groups who are considered their elite and who seem to have had close contacts with the Cuc-Trp groups and have acted as middlemen for the Carpatho-Balkan metalwork trade as far as the Volga and north Caucasus. The males in particular were noted as having a strong Neolithic farmer type phenotype element. So, it looks to me that there was a lot more geneflow involved in these interactions than is often credited. I actually have started to wonder about the linguistic impact of this group. This was the only steppes wide network before 4000BC. These Skelya (also known by other names) Stredny Stog elite groups are also considered to be the ancestors of the Suvorovo groups who spread into the Balkans from 4200BC and who Anthony has associated with Anatolian IE.

    I have got to be honest I have had further doubts about the need to place initial PIE homeland as far east as the Urals since I have read a very recent article which seems to confirm that all Uralic borrowings from IE post-date PIE. While it doesnt much alter the possibilities in term of time it does considerably widen the possibilities in terms of area when it is considered that the wheel, the usual anchor word for dating PIE proper appeared about the same time all over eastern and east-central Europe, the Caucasus etc. I think the loss of a safe anchor in terms of the Uralic connection with PIE opens up all sort of possibilities. Social change from the village-tell type society to dispersed small settlements, hierachy etc appeared from 4500BC in east-central Europe and the Balkans. I wouldnt push this too hard but I do think that the period when Skelya groups controlled the metal network from the Dnieper to the Urals and which saw metal and lithic ideas flowing from the farming world of the west Ukraine and Balkans to the Urals and beyond in the case of lithic ideas is one of the only pre-3500bc horizons where widespread dialect influence could have happened across multiple steppe cultures. Whoever they were and whatever they spoke seems likely to have been influential in the steppes and then in the Balkans after 4200BC.

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  13. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    It is not low if trace amounts of Z93* and Z283* are considered in England which is not surprising considering R1a1 overall in England is low. I do not agree that the diversity of Z645 is the highest in Eastern Europe as ~95-99% of R1a1 there is just one subclade of Z645 (Z283) unlike say in Armenia and Anatolia which have a more balanced distribution of Z93 and Z283.



    The linguists chronology is wrong. They can't explain how Prakrit words appear in Sumerian texts ("prae-Indo-Aryan" http://books.google.com/books?id=-PsUAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA166).

    IMO, Avestan material remembers the LGM when severe cold forced the Aryan chief Yama to take his folk underground.

    ""There are ten winter months there, two summer months; and those are cold for the waters, cold for the earth, cold for the trees. Winter falls there, the worst of all plagues. [Hum 35: "Ten are there the winter months, two the summer months, and even then [in summer] the waters are freezing, the earth is freezing, the plants are freezing; there is the center of winter, there is the heart of winter, there winter rushes around, there (occur) most damages caused by storm."]" http://www.avesta.org/vendidad/vd1sbe.htm

    "O fair Yima, son of Vivanghat! Upon the material world the evil winters are about to fall, that shall bring the fierce, deadly frost; upon the material world the evil winters are about to fall, that shall make snow-flakes fall thick, even an aredvi deep on the highest tops of mountains ... 'Even where it (the snow) is least, it will be one Vitasti...
    'And the beasts that live in the wilderness, and those that live on the tops of the mountains, and those that live in the bosom of the dale shall take shelter in underground abodes." http://www.avesta.org/vendidad/vd2sbe.htm



    Certainly, aren't we all.



    Yes.
    You would have likely had plenty of Z93+ in parts of Eastern Europe in ancient times.

  14. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    I’m afraid that I am unable to answer your question with any confidence.
    I can of course provide some more or less plausible scenarios, but the truth is that all of them will be just my wild guesses.

    The main problem here is that there is no strong archaeological connection that would allow us to securely derive the Corded Ware culture from any earlier Late Neolithic culture in Europe (including those in Eastern, Central or Western Europe). However, assuming that R1a-M417 was somehow involved in the putative westward expansion of the Corded Ware culture (starting from about 3000 BC) and at least with the appearance of the Poltavka culture (about 2700 BC, at the middle Volga river), considered to be the most likely predecessor of Sintashta and Andronovo (but also Srubna), I can suspect that R1a-M417 was at least partially associated with the Yamna horizon (and thus with some Pre-Yamna cultures). On the other hand, the structure of the R1a tree and the lack of any evident correlation between the distribution of different subclades of R1a and the distribution of different branches of IE (except the two major Satem branches), make me strongly suspect that it was rather the R1b-rich population that spoke PIE (both Early PIE (Proto-Indo-Hittite) and Late PIE). Thus, we also need to find a place for R1b on the steppe, and all this together requires both R1a and R1b to be a part of the Yamna horizon that covered the most part of the Eurasian steppe in the middle of the fourth millennium BC. Since in such scenario R1b would need to have been present at least in the Western part of the Yamna horizon (from where the expansion to Anatolia, but also to Southern and Western Europe could have started), this makes the Eastern (or North-Central-Eastern) part of Yamna the most likely place where R1a was present in the Pre-Yamna period. This, in turn, makes the Repin and Late Khvalynsk cultures the relatively likely reservoirs of R1a-M417 for that period.

    If all above is true (which is of course far from being proven), this would have some serious consequences regarding the most likely scenarios explaining the much earlier locations/migrations of both R1a and R1b people (and their relationship to some very early stages of the IE development). Below is one my hypothetical scenarios that I consider quite likely (at least at the current stage of our knowledge).


    The R1a (including M17* and SRY1532.2*) people could have been present in Eastern Europe at least since the Mesolithic, and it seems likely that they formed the Early Neolithic Dnieper-Donets culture. Their offshoot could have formed a closely related Samara culture, where the R1a-M417 clade could have become the most frequent R1a lineage. At the same time, the R1b-M269 (or R1b-P297) folk could have been represented by the North Caspian (Seroglazovo/Elshanka) culture, showing some similarity (relationship?) to the East Caspian (or South-East Caspian) Neolithic horizon, probably derived from the Early Neolithic Jeitun Culture in Southern Turkmenistan. The North Caspian culture could have expanded about 5000-4500 BC, strongly influencing the neighboring Samara culture and overrunning the R1a people in Dnieper-Donets. This would result in the creation of a new R1b-dominated Sredny Stog culture where only some R1a(xM417) remnants could have survived.

    The situation could have been completely different in the presumably R1a-M417-dominated Samara culture, where intensive contacts with the R1b people could have resulted in the formation of the Indo-europeanized (Satem-speaking) Khvalynsk population. By contrast to the above-postulated replacement of R1a (Dnieper-Donets) by R1b (Sredny Stog), the Khvalynsk culture could have remained mostly R1a-M417, and if there was any significant contribution of the R1b men to the Khvalynsk genetic pool, it could have remained on a very minimal level. Alternatively, those hypothetical R1a-R1b interactions in Khvalynsk could have had a transient character, with the R1b people leaving Khvalinsk very soon and moving further west (joining Sredny Stog or forming Lower Michailovka group?). Later on, the IE-speaking and R1a-rich Khvalynsk culture could have evolved into two main groupings, with one of them moving gradually west (R1a-CTS4385) and north-west (R1a-Z283), thus giving rise to the Corded Ware horizon, while the R1a-Z93 group could have initially stayed in the original place where they were likely to adopt some new cultural traits that were spread by the R1b-dominated “Yamna-proper” group. This transformation of R1a-Z93 into a part of the Yamna horizon could have been associated with the intensive contacts with the Centum-speaking R1b-Z2105 (Proto-Graeco-Armenian?) people who could have become the major R1b group on the steppe after the sister branch R1b-L51 (Proto-Italo-Celto-Germanic?) has left the North-Pontic region, moving to Balkans and then along the Danube to Central and Western Europe.

    Of course, some of the R1a-Z93 people (mostly R1a-Z94) have subsequently moved east (and then south), spreading the Proto-Indo-Iranian language to Central Asia. It should be noted, however, that the suggested late interaction between the R1a-Z93 and R1b-Z2105 people (within the broad Yamna horizon) could have been reflected by certain specific linguistic (and cultural?) similarities that are sometimes suggested for Indo-Aryan (Sanskrit) and ancient Greek.

    Theoretically, the entire hypothetical North Pontic R1b group could have produced at least three waves of IE-speaking people (Anatolian, Graeco-Armenian and Italo-Celto-Germanic), although I would rather be inclined to suggest that the Anatolian branch of IE was not connected to this particular group of R1b people. Instead, I would rather see the separation of the Anatolian IE branch taking place much earlier (which would be consistent with the much larger genetic and linguistic distance to the remaining IE subgroupings). Therefore, my hypothesis assumes that the Pre-Anatolians (mostly R1b-L389(xP297) and R1b-V88) have rather stayed in the South-Eastern Caspian region where they could have been involved in some intensive interbreeding with the neighboring Neolithic populations (mostly J2a?), so their subsequent migrations to West Asia are not easy to follow using the Y-DNA traces. However, I would expect that there were at least several waves of such migrations towards West Asia, including Hittites, Hyksos and Kassites. All these hypothetical migrations are supposed to have taken place at a relatively late date (2000-1500 BC?) and they could have been forced by the increasing pressure from the expanding Proto-Indo-Iranian people. Also, this could have been related to some significant improvement of the military capabilities of those “Proto-Anatolians”, which was probably associated with the introduction of some new warfare technologies, including of course the chariot that has been developed by their Northern Indo-Iranian neighbors shortly before that period.

    As for the Hyksos, I must admit that I like the “crazy” theory suggesting that they could have been a relatively small IE-derived group that has managed to preserve their original R1b-V88 haplogroup while switching from the IE language first to some Semitic dialect (when settling in Palestine) and then to the Old Egyptian language (when ruling this country). Eventually, some of them (who survived the Egyptian “revolution”) could have been forced to leave Egypt, possibly spreading a related (Proto-Chadic?) dialect further south. I have once consulted this hypothesis with some linguists but they were unwilling to either accept or definitely exclude the possibility that Proto-Chadic could have been derived from Old Egyptian (both belonging to the Afro-Asiatic family of languages).

    The last IE branch that needs to be somehow placed in the above scenario is Tocharian. Of course, the most common view seems to be that the Tocharian-speaking people were mostly R1a members (as suggested by the aDNA analysis of the Tarim mummies). However, according to the above scenario, the only way to incorporate R1a into the Tocharian genetic pool would be to mix them with some Indo-Iranian people. Therefore, it seems more likely that the original haplogoup of people representing the Tocharian branch of IE was rather R1b-M269*, R1b-M73 or R1b-P297*. Of course, it is possible that the Tocharian-speaking people could have assimilated some neighbors representing other haplogroups (including not only R1a but also J2a, both present in large amounts among the Uyghurs living in the Tarim basin in whom the R1b-M73, R1b-M269 and R1b(xM269,M73) haplogroups have also been found).


    Please keep in mind that all this is highly speculative and I am perfectly aware that many elements of the above scenario are very controversial (to say the least).
    My issue with this is that at proposes some sort of Proto-Satem language that likely never existed. It also doesn't account for Corded Ware speaking NW Indo-European and Balto-Slavic-Germanic unity. Satemization is likely a later feature (after all only Indo-Iranian seems to be fully Samtemized) and the Satem languages are those that were bordered by Iranian languages (Balto-Slavic, Daco-Thracian, Armenian). Satemization seems to a feature of geography. Tocharian is the exception but Iranian speakers did not likely live too close to them as they mostly lived in the mountains bordering the Tarim.

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