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Thread: what is the latest thinking on were R1a originated

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    what is the latest thinking on were R1a originated

    I mean by this DNA evidence of clades, phylogeny and variance. I think we tend to think too much based on the final modern position. If we applied that to R1b we would probably come to the wrong conclusions. I of course am aware of evidence for R1a in corded ware c. 2600BC in Germany and on the steppes after 2000BC and theories regarding Yamnaya etc. We have had various opinions from people like Anatole and others about the early origins. So what are the arguements for R1a before 3000BC? I have heard lots of alternatives but would be interested in what the data suggests.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I mean by this DNA evidence of clades, phylogeny and variance. I think we tend to think too much based on the final modern position. If we applied that to R1b we would probably come to the wrong conclusions. I of course am aware of evidence for R1a in corded ware c. 2600BC in Germany and on the steppes after 2000BC and theories regarding Yamnaya etc. We have had various opinions from people like Anatole and others about the early origins. So what are the arguements for R1a before 3000BC? I have heard lots of alternatives but would be interested in what the data suggests.

    Dont all rush at once lol. There does not seem to be much R1a focus on this forum. I was really looking to see if there are alternative 'whole story' papers to Klyosov's model. He outlined it as follows:

    We found that the most ancient R1a subclades (R1a1-M198- and R1a1a-M198+/M417-) bearers of which currently live in Europe (the present day haplotypes are scattered between England and the Balkans) appeared in Europe at least 7300 ybp, and possibly 9000 ybp. R1a’s three principal downstream subclades, L664 (North-Western branch), Z93 (South-Eastern branch), and Z283 (Eurasian branch), split from their common European ancestor at about the same time, around 7000 - 6000 ybp. L664 apparently stayed in North-Western Europe; its lineage recovered and began expanding ~ 4575 ybp. The Z93 subclade began to expand during the Aryan migrations, on the Aryan's journey to India and the Middle East in the 3rd-2nd millennia BC. The Z283 subclade split ~ 5500 ybp into three branches. One of them, Z280 (the Central Eurasian branch) moved east to the Russian Plain in 4800 - 4600 ybp, and formed at least 16 sub-branches there and in the course of the later westward repopulation of Europe in the 1st millennium BC – 1st millennium CE. Some of the older branches, like the Russian Plain branch, largely stayed in the present Russia-Ukraine-Belarus-Poland- Baltic countries region, and were described by early historians as the Scythians, Antes, Veneti, and a multitude of different proto-Slavic tribes (though many of them belonged to haplogroups other than R1a, primarily I1 and I2). Those R1a branches which are “older” than 3000 years, such as the Russian Plain branch (4600 ybp), the Western Eurasian (4300 ybp), and the Balto-Carpathian (4300 ybp), did not move en mass to Europe but stayed behind at the Russian Plain. In the middle of 1st millennium CE, the time of the collapse of the Roman Empire, multiple migrations of R1a were taking place eastward and westward; these migrations gradually formed the current landscape of R1a in Europe. All 38 branches and their datings are listed in the Appendix of this paper; current distribution maps are shown in the body of the paper.
    Last edited by alan; 06-17-2013 at 01:23 PM.

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    The STR-based portion of Klyosov's phylogeny has been superseded by SNP discoveries.

    - Klyosov's paragraph does not even mention M458 and its enigmatic relationship to Z280. The expansion of M458 is arguably the most spectacular development in Central-Eastern European population history. Is it identical to the Slavic expansion? And if so, what is the implication of its apparent centering on southern Poland?

    - Z280 has two major subbranches, Z92 and CTS1211, as well as some smaller clusters belonging to neither. Z92 is geographically concentrated east and southeast of the Baltic Sea (Lithuania, Belarus, and into Russia), whereas CTS1211 has a far wider spread and a bouquet of subclades and subclusters.

    - Z93 has two major subbranches, L657 and Z2124. L657 is mostly found in South Asia and among Arabs, whereas Z2124 is spread widely all across West/South/Southwest Asia and with some frequency even in Eastern and Western Europe (even besides its phenomenal growth among Ashkenazi Levites).

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    How do you suppose R1a entered Europe? Via the Caucasus or Caspian? Or an Anatolia to Balkans expansion?

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    How do you suppose R1a entered Europe? Via the Caucasus or Caspian? Or an Anatolia to Balkans expansion?
    Are you sure that R1a entered Europe? I am always waiting that someone shows me all these R1a-M420* out of Europe. The R1 FTDNA Project have many from the Isles and also Italy, and probably also R1a1* is more diffused in Europe than elsewhere. Asia has last subclades above all. Are you sure of your thoughts (or desires)?

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    Not my thought or desires. Just the general consensus. Find any reputable individual who says otherwise. And the same applies for R1b and IJ. All are ultimatley from West Asia whether you accept it or not. The genetics world isn't losing sleep over your rants on multiple online forums about R1a or R1b or whatever your agenda of the day wants to make Italian.
    Last edited by newtoboard; 06-17-2013 at 06:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    The STR-based portion of Klyosov's phylogeny has been superseded by SNP discoveries.

    - Klyosov's paragraph does not even mention M458 and its enigmatic relationship to Z280. The expansion of M458 is arguably the most spectacular development in Central-Eastern European population history. Is it identical to the Slavic expansion? And if so, what is the implication of its apparent centering on southern Poland?

    - Z280 has two major subbranches, Z92 and CTS1211, as well as some smaller clusters belonging to neither. Z92 is geographically concentrated east and southeast of the Baltic Sea (Lithuania, Belarus, and into Russia), whereas CTS1211 has a far wider spread and a bouquet of subclades and subclusters.

    - Z93 has two major subbranches, L657 and Z2124. L657 is mostly found in South Asia and among Arabs, whereas Z2124 is spread widely all across West/South/Southwest Asia and with some frequency even in Eastern and Western Europe (even besides its phenomenal growth among Ashkenazi Levites).
    Has variance looked at the relative ages of these clades? I still havent a clear idea of the ages of the various clades relative to geography. With R1b it is fairly well established by phylogeny and variance to be older around the circumpontic zone in its widest sense. I am not clear whether anything similar has been established for R1a. It seems to have been related to Yamnaya by a lot of people but is this actually supported by the nature of R1a phylogeny, variance etc. Is there any hint of its location in the Neolithic for example?

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Not my thought or desires. Just the general consensus. Find any reputable individual who says otherwise. And the same applies for R1b and IJ. All are ultimatley from West Asia whether you accept it or not. The genetics world isn't losing sleep over your rants on multiple online forums about R1a or R1b or whatever your agenda of the day wants to make Italian.
    A few questions:

    1. Are there more European R1a** in FTDNA projects? If so, can it be attributable to American testing bias or is it even more so than in other haplogroups?
    2. Is there anything R1a** in academic studies that might help?
    3. Did the 1000 Genomes project show Asian R1a***?
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    How do you suppose R1a entered Europe? Via the Caucasus or Caspian? Or an Anatolia to Balkans expansion?
    I dont know myself but, like R1b, its areas of high frequency could be misleading. The main possibility other than the Yamnaya link I see is the possibility that it was located on the western boundary of the steppe, possibly even within the farming part. I have posted many times that as well as steppe influences there was a corded ware element in the movement east from around the Carpathians and Middle Dnieper through a chain of cultures (maybe a reflux, maybe not) that have been associated by Anthony with Slavic, Baltic and Indo-Iranian. There was an huge melting pot and emergence of all sort of new hybrid cultures c. 4000-3000BC on the steppe-farming world boundary. There was a massive population displacement too of the farmers on the western steppe edge (C-Trypole) and morphing into new cultures. I think there is a possibility that R1a could have been linked to that and to have headed east with Middle Dnieper, Fatyanovo, Abashevo and Sintashta. I wouldnt rule out the possibility then that R1a simultaniously headed west and east from a point at the western steppe-farmer interface. This possibility will not be ruled out until R1a is shown to be significantly pre-3000BC in a true steppe culture. It is equally possible that R1a is steppic but we cannot jump to conclusions based on post-3000BC steppic presence because there was clearly a west to east thrust into the steppes too with the whole Fatyanovo, Abashevo etc groups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    - Z280 has two major subbranches, Z92 and CTS1211, as well as some smaller clusters belonging to neither. Z92 is geographically concentrated east and southeast of the Baltic Sea (Lithuania, Belarus, and into Russia), whereas CTS1211 has a far wider spread and a bouquet of subclades and subclusters.
    I forgot what is arguably the most important division:

    - CTS1211 has two major subbranches, one marked by CTS3402 and the other called Old Carpathian (for which one unifying SNP has not yet been found). CTS3402 is more Eastern European, stretching all the way to the Volga, whereas Old Carpathian is more Central European.

    In contrast to Klyosov's scenario, which places the "action" on the Eastern European Plain (which he imperialistically calls the Russian Plain even in English), SNPs are generally locating most of the "action" near the Carpathian Mountains of southern Poland, with secondary "action" southeast of the Baltic Sea.

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