Page 26 of 27 FirstFirst ... 1624252627 LastLast
Results 251 to 260 of 262

Thread: R1b in the Caucasus (other than Armenia) is nearly all in the north in Russia

  1. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    By the prediction I did from the sequence from DYS590 to DYS511 ( 8 11 10 8 11 11) all these Hungarians R-L23 could be L216+ as a subclade of L584 as smal hypothesized.

    149197 R1b1a2a1 R-L150 L150+, L216+, L23+, L49+, M269+, L21-, M222-, P310-, P311-, P312-, U106-, U152-
    11 24 14 10 12-16 12 12 12 12 13 28 15 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 28 15-15-16-19 12 11 19-23 15 15 17 17 35-37 13 12 12 9 15-16 8 11 10 8 11 11 12 23-24 15 10 12 12 14 8 13 23 20 14 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
    249504 Bedő Bedő, Jászság, Hungary Hungary R1b1a2
    12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 30
    241746 Balla Balla, Jászság, Hungary Hungary R1b1a2a1
    12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 14 13 31 15 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 32 14-14-16-18 10 11 19-23 16 16 19 18 36-40 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 11 10 8 11 11 12 23-25 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 14 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
    277042 Szabari Szabari, Jászapáti, Hungary Hungary R1b1a2
    12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 14 13 13 30
    249124 Bollók Bollók, Jászság, Hungary Hungary R1b1a2
    12 24 15 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 30

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Rathna For This Useful Post:

     Joe B (11-07-2013),  Silesian (11-08-2013)

  3. #252
    Registered Users
    Posts
    897
    Sex
    Location
    California
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-Z2103>Y14416

    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    There are not to many places where R1b M343 M269- and R1b L23x51 are grouped together;Iran, being one place. Do you have any other regions where the two are found amongst Iranian speaking peoples or other?

    276867 Nigkoev Nigkoev, North Ossetia R1b R-M343 M343+, M269-

    Any idea about those Kromsdorf samples?
    Okay, I see what you are saying about the association R1b M343 M269- and R1b L23x51. Just trying to run down Alani R1b-Z2103 and was reading in Jean Manco's book about the Alans going to Ossetia in the 7th century AD.
    The strongest signal of their (Alans) arrival is 15.7 per cent R1b1a2 (M269) among Ossetian men of the Digorian branch. The date of R1b1a2 (M269) among Ossets generally, calculated using pedigree mutation rate, corresponds to the incoming Alans. The incoming language was associated here with an elite.
    Ancestral Journeys The Peopling of Europe from the First Venturers to the Vikings
    Jean Manco 2013 page 150
    Last edited by Joe B; 11-08-2013 at 05:13 PM.

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to Joe B For This Useful Post:

     Silesian (11-08-2013)

  5. #253
    Registered Users
    Posts
    7,873
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA (P)
    L21
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    I certainly think that its fair to say that almost all R1b in the Hindu Kush and the other area included in the study is either today associated with Iranian speakers or to a lesser degree Turkic speakers. Both peoples would of course point to an origin to the north.

    However, I think the very early R1b clades probably relate to a very different phase, back in the late Palaeolithic and have a distribution suggestive of having been pushed south of the LGM desert area to a similar latitude with the longitudinal aspect ranging almost the whole length of central Asia to north Iran in the west. I think though it stands to reason that the L23xL51, M269* and M73 distributions relate to a very different period, the copper age. The period in between the very early R1b had seen the desert go, then return in the younger dryas then go again in the Atlantic pluvial etc that the two phases are very disconnected. I would still maintain that there is little evidence of any R1b expanding until after 5000BC which suggests it remained outside the core farming areas until that period, probably not arriving in areas like Anatolia, Mesopotamia etc until after than date. I still think M73 probably holds the key. It was the brother clade of M269 and it seems to be known through north central Asia as far as north Altai in the east and Ukraine in the west. It came to be associated with Turkic and to a lesser extend Iranic groups throughout that range (although probably not originally Turkic). Turkic history is very complicated though and its not a simple east to west movement. Having read into it, it is clear that there were also moves back towards the east among Turkic groups and the only Altai group with M73 is one with strong associations with having been much further west before returning to Altai. So its complex and hard to deduce where M73 was picked up by the Turks - probably somewhere in west Siberia or around the Ural-Caspian area IMO.

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to alan For This Useful Post:

     Joe B (11-08-2013),  Silesian (11-08-2013)

  7. #254
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,778
    Ethnicity
    Pred.Anglo-Saxon + Briton
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b S21184, BY50830+
    mtDNA (M)
    U4b1a2 - FGS
    Y-DNA (M)
    ?
    mtDNA (P)
    I2

    Canada England Wales Netherlands France Cornwall
    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    There are not to many places where R1b M343 M269- and R1b L23x51 are grouped together;Iran, being one place. Do you have any other regions where the two are found amongst Iranian speaking peoples or other?

    276867 Nigkoev Nigkoev, North Ossetia R1b R-M343 M343+, M269-

    Any idea about those Kromsdorf samples?
    This haplotype is one of the R1b1a1 (M73+) motifs, not to be confused with R1b1* or R1b1c. We should clarify that.

  8. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ADW_1981 For This Useful Post:

     Joe B (11-08-2013),  Silesian (11-08-2013)

  9. #255
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,440
    Sex
    Location
    Canada's Wonderland
    Ethnicity
    Space the final frontier.
    Nationality
    Worldwide
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-Z2110>BY593+
    mtDNA (M)
    U5B2A2
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-U106

    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    This haplotype is one of the R1b1a1 (M73+) motifs, not to be confused with R1b1* or R1b1c. We should clarify that.
    There is also a R1b1* sample in Georgia, although if it was Alan is uncertain. The marker on the map function places it in Gori.
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ysnp

    If it is Alan, it is very compelling as R1b L23X51- R1b M73+ & R1b1* are found together in Iran.
    216826 Kaikhosro Javakhishvili, b.c. 15??, Georgia R1b1 R-P25 M343+, P25+, M18-, M269-, M335-, M73-, P297-, V88-

    The territory of Gori has been populated since the early Bronze Age. According to the medieval Georgian chronicles, the town of Gori was founded by King David IV (r. 1089-1125) who settled refugees from Armenia there. However, the fortress of Gori (Goris-Tsikhe), appears to have been in use already in the 7th century, and archaeological evidence indicates the existence of an urban community in Classical Antiquity. In 1299, Gori was captured by the Alan tribesmen fleeing the Mongol conquest of their original homeland in the North Caucasus. The Georgian king George V recovered the town in 1320, pushing the Alans back over the Caucasus mountains.
    Last edited by Silesian; 11-08-2013 at 06:44 AM.

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to Silesian For This Useful Post:

     Joe B (11-08-2013)

  11. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    There is also a R1b1* sample in Georgia, although if it was Alan is uncertain. The marker on the map function places it in Gori.

    If it is Alan, it is very compelling as R1b L23X51- R1b M73+ & R1b1* are found together in Iran.
    216826 Kaikhosro Javakhishvili, b.c. 15??, Georgia R1b1 R-P25 M343+, P25+, M18-, M269-, M335-, M73-, P297-, V88-
    216826 Kaikhosro Javakhishvili, b.c. 15??, Georgia R1b1 R-P25
    M343+, P25+, M18-, M269-, M335-, M73-, P297-, V88-

    I have demonstrated that there isn't an equivalence between P25+ and R1b1*. Javakhishvili and all the other Asians with YCAII=21-23 or 23-23 or similar should be tested for L388 and L389, which is the SNP of the Western European R1b1* ancestors of the subclades.
    So far the unique Asian R1b tested have resulted L388 or L389- (see Raza and Joshi), thus not the ancestors of the European subclades, and I have hypothesized that all the other Asians are the same (see what I have written about the last documented R-M343 in Central Asia and Iran).

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to Rathna For This Useful Post:

     Joe B (11-08-2013)

  13. #257
    Joshi
    8 11 22 20 15 12 11 13 10 11 11 12
    Humphreys
    8 12 25 21 13 11 11 13 12 11 12 12
    Ofen
    8 11 27 21 14 11 11 13 13 11 12 11
    DeMao
    8 12 24 21 14 11 11 13 12 11 12 13
    Segarra
    8 12 24 20 14 11 11 13 12 11 12 12
    Vartperonian
    8 14 21 21 15 11 11 13 12 11 12 13
    Hawa
    8 12 24 20 12 12 11 13 11 11 11 13

  14. #258
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,440
    Sex
    Location
    Canada's Wonderland
    Ethnicity
    Space the final frontier.
    Nationality
    Worldwide
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-Z2110>BY593+
    mtDNA (M)
    U5B2A2
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-U106

    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    this recent study of the caucasus http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten....full.pdf+html

    had a table 3 http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...ables_corr.pdf

    that showed elevated M269 and derived clades (undefined) among the Bagvalals (Dagestan, Russia- NE Caucasian speakers), Kumyks (north Dagestan, Russia -Turkic speakers),Tabasarans (Dagestan, Russia- NE Lezgic Caucasian speakers), Kuban Nogays (Black Sea Russia-Turkic speakers), Lezgins (Dagestan-Azerbaijan border - NE Caucasian speakers) and Armenians (IE speakers). Sample shows that R1b is low among Georgians and other than the Armenians is nearly all on the north side of the very high main NW-SE ridge of the Caucasus - on the Russian side. South of this only the Armenians have much M269 clades

    M73 only looks significant among Kara (Dagestan, Russia) Nogays, the Balkars of the Russia (Russia-Georgian border area just NW of Osseta) and to a lesser degree Karachays (also of the Russia near the Black Sea end of the border with Georgia). All are Turkic speakers. I notice the Turkic Nogays/Nogais are odd in that the Kuban ones have lots of M269 and no M73 while the Kara ones are the reverse of that.

    The main geographical pattern I can see is that M269 derived clades (with the exception of Armenia) are FAR stronger represented in the northern part of the Caucasus within the Russian border between the north Caspian and NE Black Sea and is weakest in Georgia. This is very important and seems to have been overlooked due to the lack of maps in this report and the very awkward to use table. There is a mythology based on Armenia that R1b (overwhelmingly L23*) is southern in the Caucasus and not a great match for Maykop. This is a myth that I believe until very recently. Both M269 clades and M73 are resoundingly highest on the north side of the Russian border albeit among north Caucasian language speakers and some Turks.

    The distibution of these R1b-richer peoples of the Caucasus is a near carbon copy of the map of the Maykop culture. Its uncanny and I hadnt realise that before because I was fooled into thinking R1b was a south Caucasus thing because of Armenia.

    Today it seems the oldest extant local languages in the former Maykop zone are part of the North Caucasian group that sit on the very border of the IE world. However, the Maykop area was on over the great NW-SE ridge of the Caucasus and in the northern Piedmont basically running down to the steppe and I think Bilingualism must have existed here since the copper age.
    I was going to start a new thread on Armenian R1b when this one caught my attention.Almost 3 years . Great call!! With all the new studies, you nailed it. Slip the R1b tree comparing Steppe samples, and link to R1b L-584 to save from creating new thread.
    Although no Steppe samples from Yamnaya have come back as R1b-L584.
    Rise-397 roots back to R1b-Z2106+


    Side note for R1b-L584+ Also the interesting branch of L943+
    Sample labeled as K-2015-Armen1-Armenian-Verdenis.
    Not overall enthused about using wiki-However, "Vardenis is one of the oldest settlements in Armenia"
    The Armenian language-
    Armenian is an independent branch of the Indo-European languages.[23] It is of interest to linguists for its distinctive phonological developments within that family. Armenian exhibits more satemization than centumization, although it is not classified as belonging to either of these. Some linguists tentatively conclude that Armenian, Greek (Phrygian), Albanian and Indo-Iranian were dialectally close to each other;[24][25][26][27] within this hypothetical dialect group, Proto-Armenian was situated between Proto-Greek (centum subgroup) and Proto-Indo-Iranian (satem subgroup).[28]
    http://www.kumbarov.com/ht35/R1b-M26...08_03_2016.pdf
    Last edited by Silesian; 08-23-2016 at 01:42 PM.

  15. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Silesian For This Useful Post:

     icebreaker (08-23-2016),  Mis (08-23-2016),  XooR (08-23-2016)

  16. #259
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,113
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    DF27, FGC15743
    mtDNA (M)
    T2f3

    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    There is a mythology based on Armenia that R1b (overwhelmingly L23*) is southern in the Caucasus and not a great match for Maykop. This is a myth that I believe until very recently. Both M269 clades and M73 are resoundingly highest on the north side of the Russian border albeit among north Caucasian language speakers and some Turks.
    Maybe, but note that P312>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12>ZZ19>Z31644>A431 is not just present, but probably a majority among the males, in Khndzoresk, Syunik, Armenia. That isn't L23*. If you just have to talk about what is present now, in discussing the genetic shadow of Maykop.

  17. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to razyn For This Useful Post:

     rms2 (08-23-2016),  Silesian (08-23-2016)

  18. #260
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,964
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Italo-Iberian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152+L2+FGC10543
    mtDNA (M)
    H4a1-T152C!

    United States of America Italy 1861-1946 Spain
    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    Maybe, but note that P312>Z40481>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12>ZZ19>Z31644>A431 is not just present, but probably a majority among the males, in Khndzoresk, Syunik, Armenia. That isn't L23*. If you just have to talk about what is present now, in discussing the genetic shadow of Maykop.
    Are most from a single founder effect? Something like 70% of Northern Bashikrs are U152+, but all of them have an almost identical STR haplogroup. If the DF27 samples are similar, then the high frequency is likely not very meaningful given Maykop's age.

    EDIT: Although it is interesting that YFull puts the age of A431 at 4500 ybp and sublacdes of L584 at 4700 ybp. Perhaps they entered the Armenian population at the same time???
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 08-23-2016 at 05:12 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

Page 26 of 27 FirstFirst ... 1624252627 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 93
    Last Post: 07-23-2020, 05:39 PM
  2. Replies: 14
    Last Post: 01-26-2020, 05:40 AM
  3. DF27 in Armenia
    By GoldenHind in forum R1b-DF27
    Replies: 77
    Last Post: 08-17-2019, 03:48 PM
  4. DF27>A431 in Armenia
    By Mher in forum R1b-DF27
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 09-20-2018, 05:49 AM
  5. Is there high IBD sharing between Armenia and Sicily?
    By Sikeliot in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 03-18-2016, 05:22 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •