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Thread: Blog post: "Was The Celtic Transition Demic?"

  1. #11
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    The thesis was quite badly edited and has some errors, but hey, it has one author who is an overworked student, we can't expect a polished paper.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    This is a recent Master's thesis from University of Fairbanks. M. Anctil, 2016. Ancient Celts: myth, invention, or reality? Dental affinities among continental and non-continental Celtic groups

    'Celtic' is being used here to refer to Hallstatt/La Tene material cultural styles, which is somewhat out of favour these days but far from gone, as Jean says. The author is not assuming that the connection of Hallstatt with linguistic Proto-Celts is actually correct.

    The populations are: "Proto-Celts" - Hallstatt D phase (675-450 BC), from Hallstatt, Austria, n=30; "Continental Celts" - La Tene period (420-240 BC), from Musingen, Switzerland, n=33; "Non-Continental Celts" - Middle Iron Age (400-100 BC), Yorkshire, n=31; "comparative sample" - Iron Age (650-300 BC), from Pontecagnano, Campania (outside of the La Tene area), n=31. The Yorkshire samples are from five different graveyards which are noted for having burial rituals (Arras culture) similar to continental ones of the time (square barrows, cart burials) and has been linked to immigration from France.

    Anway, all these populations turned out to be biologically distinct. So the bearers of Hallstatt, La Tene, and Arras cultures were not all one closely-related group. Which I guess they could have been in principle, but finding out that they weren't is not exactly shocking and doesn't really tell us that much about the spread of Celtic languages. It doesn't even tell us whether the Arras culture elite were immigrants, since they presumably wouldn't have come from Switzerland anyway.
    I recently also stated that they where not truly connected.............I said it seems to me that gallic-celts in SE germany and their association with Halstatt are different from the gallic-celts in SW germany and their association with La Tene

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  3. #13
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    This was posted by Dubhthach elsewhere, but it is applicable here, especially when Dr. Koch talks about "the dog that didn't bark".

     


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  5. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    This was posted by Dubhthach elsewhere, but it is applicable here, especially when Dr. Koch talks about "the dog that didn't bark".

    Listen to the one minute from 10 through 11 minutes in, where Dr. Koch says regarding ancient dna that "there is a lot more stuff in the pipeline" and that it supports the conclusion that there was discontinuity between the Neolithic and the Bronze Age.
     


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  7. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    This was posted by Dubhthach elsewhere, but it is applicable here...
    Thanks. I didn't see this when Dubhthach posted it. Very good talk.
    • DNA. He's got a solid grip on the recent aDNA papers and their implications.
    • Language. His dismissal (as a fellow linguist) of Schrijver's postulation of an incredibly late date for the arrival of Celtic into Ireland was very welcome. I had also thought the same. If it was that late, why was there no recollection of it? But also why are there so few non-IE place-names. Either none or almost none. I had also noted Mallory's name on the Cassidy paper, and presumed that meant a change in his thinking since The Origins of the Irish.
    • Mythology. I was particularly interested in the mythology paper by John Carey that he talked about. Had not read that.

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  9. #16
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    I was gratified to see his honorable mention of Myles Dillon as someone who picked up on the possibility of an early form of Celtic arriving with the Beaker people. He could have mentioned Henri Hubert and a few others, as well, but it's nice to see Dillon get some credit as having been ahead of his time.
    Last edited by rms2; 02-17-2017 at 11:23 PM.
     


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  11. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I was gratified to see his honorable mention of Myles Dillon as someone who picked up on the possibility of an early form of Celtic arriving with the Beaker people. He could have mentioned Henri Hubert and a few others, as well, but it's nice to see Dillon get some credit as having been ahead of his time.
    Anyone can get the full list from Blood of the Celts, note 68 of chapter 2: Hubert 1934, 186; Dillon and Chadwick 1967, 4; Corcoran 1970, 24; Anthony 2007, 367; Cunliffe 2010, 34.

    A lecture is not really the place for reading out a lot of references, but Prof. Koch did give out a hand-out sheet, which I presume listed references, so there could have been more there.

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    I like this video below because Krause does such a good job explaining the PCA chart.

     


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