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Thread: from western Yamna to Europe : a I2a2 + R1b-M269 joined venture ?

  1. #111
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    The Rathlin Island burials did not involve megalithic structures at all but were cist burials very much like typical Bell Beaker stuff.

    It's interesting that Koch says, referring to ancient dna, at about 10 through 11 minutes in, he has it on good authority that "there is a lot more stuff in the pipeline", and that it tends to corroborate the idea of discontinuity between the Neolithic and the Bronze Age already demonstrated by the differences between the Neolithic Ballynahatty woman and the Bronze Age Rathlin Island men.
     


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  3. #112
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    Dr Margaret Stewart's old paper, 'A New Analysis of the Early Bronze Age Beaker Pottery of Scotland' highlighted the difference between Beaker Folk settlers on the east & west coasts of Scotland. She stated that in the east 'there is no evidence of contact with a pre-existing Neolithic population, and Beaker cultural supremacy is firmly established'. She said that on the west coast 'they didn't come to colonise or settle'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    I have only watched briefly, but Koch is continuing with the Atlantic Bronze Age idea, and even appears to be suggesting that it came north to south, explaining why Iberian in west Iberia and Basque in the mountain ranges survived.
    The slide that makes that point most emphatically starts at 58:10, quite near the end of Koch's very interesting presentation.

    Screen Shot 2017-02-17 at 1.23.31 PM.jpg

    This north to south movement of the specific mortuary tradition is of course after the east to west migration (from the steppe) that brought those guys to Rathlin Island. And btw seems to have happened on the north side of the Carpathians, perhaps distinctly from the more frequently mapped and discussed route up the Danube.

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  7. #114
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    Great Presentation,
    I loved the reference to mythology which is often ridiculed as not important to the debate.
    I can picture the reuse of Megalithic tombs or in proximity by the Bell Beaker culture and you can see this clearly at Brú na Bóinne and Stonehenge.
    Interesting reference to the Sion, Petit Chasseur site.

    Final bullet point:

    "Open minds are in order as we await more data".

    "This turnover invites the possibility of accompanying introduction of Indo-European, perhaps early Celtic, language. Irish Bronze Age haplotypic similarity is strongest within modern Irish, Scottish, and Welsh populations, and several important genetic vari- ants that today show maximal or very high frequencies in Ireland appear at this horizon."
    Last edited by Heber; 02-17-2017 at 06:20 PM.
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  9. #115
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    Concerning the Rathlin Island burial, I am aware that is a cist grave. I was making the comment of the context that Koch put it in and reviewing the video, he did indeed put the burial nearby a megalithic or mound structure so we don't know what we don't know about it.

    Individual burials are not new in Iberia, they date back to 6000 BC, that is one fact. Another fact is that the majority of the Bell Beakers funerary practices (and I emphasize Bell) in Iberia, as well as The Islands and France are used in a megalithic collective burial surroundings , so what do we do with that information, ignore it cause it doesn't fit the made up Steppe Beaker package?.
    Here is a link to a BB burial in the region of Valencia mid 3rd millennium and it's complex tale, for those interested of course:

    A funerary perspective on Bell Beaker period in the WesternMediterranean. Reading the social context of individual burialsat La Vital (Gandía, Valencia)
    http://tp.revistas.csic.es/index.php...wnload/650/672

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    The Rathlin Island burials did not involve megalithic structures at all but were cist burials very much like typical Bell Beaker stuff.

    It's interesting that Koch says, referring to ancient dna, at about 10 through 11 minutes in, he has it on good authority that "there is a lot more stuff in the pipeline", and that it tends to corroborate the idea of discontinuity between the Neolithic and the Bronze Age already demonstrated by the differences between the Neolithic Ballynahatty woman and the Bronze Age Rathlin Island men.
    Last edited by Isidro; 02-18-2017 at 12:53 PM.

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  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isidro View Post
    Concerning the Rathlin Island burial, I am aware that is a cist grave. I was making the comment of the context that Koch put it in and reviewing the video, he did indeed put the burial nearby a megalithic or mound structure so we don't know what we don't know about it.
    I don't recall that at all, and it's not in the Cassidy et al paper. The bodies were found behind a pub and nowhere near any megalithic structures, but perhaps you can point out the place in the Koch video where he actually says the Rathlin Island burials were near a megalithic structure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isidro View Post
    Individual burials are not new in Iberia, they date back to 6000 BC, that is one fact. Another fact is that the majority of the Bell Beakers (and I emphasize Bell) in Iberia, as well as The Islands and France are used in a collective surroundings , so what do we do with that information, ignore it cause it doesn't fit the made up Steppe Beaker package?.
    Here is a link to a BB burial in the region of Valencia mid 3rd millennium and it's complex tale, for those interested of course:

    A funerary perspective on Bell Beaker period in the WesternMediterranean. Reading the social context of individual burialsat La Vital (Gandía, Valencia)
    http://tp.revistas.csic.es/index.php...wnload/650/672
    I've pointed out quite a few times that the very earliest Bell Beaker burials in Iberia were in collective Neolithic tombs without the steppe array of weapons, horse bones, etc., and contained skeletons that were short in stature, long headed, and gracile, of a type called Mediterranean, like what is typical of Near Eastern-derived Neolithic farmers. These facts separate them from the kurgan-style Bell Beaker people, who tended to be tall, robust, and round headed, and who buried their important dead, especially males, in pits in single graves, accompanied by weapons and horse bones and under a round tumulus.

    Coon noticed this and wrote, in his book, The Races of Europe, page 150:

    Quote Originally Posted by Carleton S. Coon
    Where Bell Beaker burials are found in central Europe, the skeletons are almost always of the same tall brachycephalic
    type which we have already studied in the eastern Mediterranean and Italy. In Spain, however, they are frequently of the Megalithic race.
    Hubert mentions this difference as occurring in Britain, as well. This is from his book, The History of the Celtic People, pp. 171-173:

    Quote Originally Posted by Henri Hubert
    In the first period of the Bronze Age there arrived in the British Isles, coming from the Continent, people with very marked characteristics. The old Neolithic inhabitants (among whom I include those of all the beginning of the Bronze Age) were long-heads of Mediterranean type, who built for their dead, or, at least, for the more distinguished of them, tumuli with a funeral chamber known as the "long barrows", in which one sometimes finds those curious bell-shaped beakers adorned at regular intervals with bands of incised or stamped decoration, of a very simple and austere type. The newcomers were of quite a different type, and had other funeral practices.

    They buried their dead under round tumuli, known as "round barrows", in graves in which the body was placed in a crouching position on one side and enclosed in stone flags or woodwork. Later they burned them. In their graves there were zoned beakers (Fig. 33), but of a late type in which the neck is distinguished from the belly, or vases derived from these beakers . . . The grave goods comprised buttons with a V-shaped boring, flint and copper daggers, arrow-heads, and flat perforated pieces of schist which are "bracers", or bowman's wristguards. The skeletons were of a new type: tall, with round heads of a fairly constant shape, the brow receding, the supraciliary ridge prominent, the cheek-bones highly developed, and the jaws massive and projecting so as to present a dip at the base of the nose. I have already described them as one of the types represented in Celtic burials.

    The association of the physical type of this people with the beaker has led British anthropologists to call it the Beaker Folk . . . In Scotland they were accompanied by other brachycephals, with a higher index and of Alpine type. In general they advanced from south to north and from east to west, and their progress lasted long enough for there to be a very marked difference in furniture between their oldest and latest tombs.

    . . . Their progress was a conquest. It is evident that they subdued and assimilated the previous occupants of the country.
    This leads me to suspect that the earliest Iberian BB people are a different people from the later BB people and that perhaps they were non-R1b and had little or no steppe autosomal dna.
    Last edited by rms2; 02-18-2017 at 01:14 PM.
     


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    In the minute 40:20 mentions it, he calls the Rathlin Island burials a megalithic structure subsidiary cist.

    He could be wrong in his positioning but it is clear that collective burials are the thrust of the Bell Beakers front along the Atlantic.

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I don't recall that at all, and it's not in the Cassidy et al paper. The bodies were found behind a pub and nowhere near any megalithic structures, but perhaps you can point out the place in the Koch video where he actually says the Rathlin Island burials were near a megalithic structure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isidro View Post
    In the minute 40:20 mentions it, he calls the Rathlin Island burials a megalithic structure subsidiary cist.

    He could be wrong in his positioning but it is clear that collective burials are the thrust of the Bell Beakers front along the Atlantic.
    No, you are mistaken. He was talking about a megalith in Portugal and mentioned cists like the ones in Rathlin Island, but he never said the cists in Rathlin Island were near a megalithic structure.

    Check out this description of the site and the excavation. No megalithic structures.

    The Excavation of a Bronze Age Cist Burial Demesne Townland Church Bay Rathlin Island Co. Antrim
    Last edited by rms2; 02-18-2017 at 01:42 PM.
     


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    While we are waiting for the big Bell Beaker paper and for ancient stuff from the Carpathian Basin, we can wonder what the very very earliest Iberian Bell Beaker people were like, those with the Mediterranean type bodies who were buried in collective Neolithic tombs. Were the males R1b or something more typical of Near Eastern-derived Neolithic farmers, like G2a?

    A clue could be that Vucedol period skeleton from Hungary, c. 2800 BC. Thus far, we know he was R1b-M343, and supposedly he has been or is being more extensively analyzed in Reich's lab. Gimbutas claimed that Bell Beaker was the product of the combination of Yamnaya and Vucedol in the Carpathian Basin in the 3rd millennium BC, but of course she was talking about the classic kurgan type of Bell Beaker. If that Vucedol period skeleton turns out to be some kind of L51, that would tend to support Gimbutas. We will see.

    I'm looking forward to seeing that Bell Beaker paper, but I recall reading that the oldest BB skeletons in it date only to about 2500 BC. That won't do much to tell us about the earliest Iberian BB, if that is the case.
     


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  19. #120
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    Yes, I am with you
    There is a distinction between Iberian bodies and N European generally speaking with Bell Beakers. It might be the case that the R1b-L51 layer is not the principal drive behind BB, it could be an immigration force layered over the networks established in the late Neolithic.Over time and causes not known L-51 became dominant so it would be logical to attribute all the changes to them.

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